In this episode Jane is joined by Tanya Hicks, a neurodivergent woman and founder of Neurodivergent Empowered. Tanya shares her journey with ADHD and autism, discussing the challenges of masking and the importance of authenticity.
They explore societal pressures, the joy of pursuing passions, and the need for supportive environments for neurodivergent individuals.
Tanya emphasizes the significance of creating safe spaces where people can unmask and be their true selves, without criticism or judgement. The episode highlights the impact of long-term masking on mental health and the importance of seeking support.
If you’d like to know more about Tanya and Neurodivergent Empowered visit https://www.neurodivergentempowered.com/
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EXTRA RESOURCES:
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Transcript
Welcome to the ADHD Mums podcast, a safe place for everyday Australian
Speaker:mums to discuss their struggles with ADHD, motherhood, and life.
Speaker:Hello and welcome to the next episode of ADHD Mums.
Speaker:Today we have an episode I've been wanting to do for a long time,
Speaker:but I wanted to bring in the right guest and that is Tanya Hicks.
Speaker:So if you haven't heard of Tanya Hicks, she's a local Sunshine Coaster
Speaker:and she's a neurodivergent woman.
Speaker:She's also a mum.
Speaker:So she's, an ADHD mum as well, with a child who's also neurodivergent.
Speaker:She has a very strong track record in various professional arenas.
Speaker:She's very accomplished.
Speaker:She's done national management.
Speaker:She's done neurodivergent affirming therapy.
Speaker:She's also done international sporting representation, which I would never
Speaker:have guessed having met Tanya in person.
Speaker:Tanya really saw a pressing need within the community, she had then
Speaker:embarked on a mission to create a haven where neurodivergent individuals
Speaker:could truly thrive and Be Themselves.
Speaker:This space is called Neurodivergent Empowered and it helps children,
Speaker:teenagers and adults to embrace their unique selves, foster self confidence
Speaker:and discover genuine happiness.
Speaker:She has a dedicated team and they put this vision into reality, if you think
Speaker:about so many people talk about it, but the actual doing it is really hard.
Speaker:So I welcome Tanya Hicks.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:It's so great to be here.
Speaker:I've met Tanya in person.
Speaker:My children have attended some of her programs, which are awesome, by the way.
Speaker:And Tanya really walks the talk around unmasking.
Speaker:So when I first met Tanya, she, one of the only things that we talked about
Speaker:was that Tanya really wanted the people inside her group program to unmask.
Speaker:Parents, Adults, teachers or educators that are there, and that was pretty
Speaker:much the only requirement to attending.
Speaker:And I walked away and thought, wow, that's a really different approach,
Speaker:which is why I wanted to hold space for you to do this episode, because
Speaker:you're someone who truly walks the talk.
Speaker:Yeah, unmasking is something I know for myself that it's been a process to learn.
Speaker:And for me, it's the epitome of safety if someone can hold space
Speaker:for you to be your authentic self.
Speaker:And we think that we do that a lot, but we actually don't.
Speaker:It's the requirement for the leaders that I bring on board in the team
Speaker:is that they themselves must unmask and show their authentic selves.
Speaker:They absolutely have to create a space where people feel safe to.
Speaker:Obviously this has been a large, a long journey for you.
Speaker:Could you tell us a little bit about your diagnosis pathway, how old
Speaker:you were and how that was for you?
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:So I'm 47 this year.
Speaker:I didn't even know anything about autism.
Speaker:I knew a little bit about ADHD when I was a child, but they were
Speaker:just the naughty kids, right?
Speaker:They're the ones that were always in trouble if they got
Speaker:a label at that stage of ADHD.
Speaker:Where I started my process would probably be like most mothers when
Speaker:my child was diagnosed probably about 11 years ago, autistic and
Speaker:ADHD and a few other things as well.
Speaker:And it was through me trying to provide him with this beautiful,
Speaker:safe space to be his authentic self that I was like, holy crap, I think
Speaker:I show up in this way as well.
Speaker:Now, first of all, I only accepted the ADHD side of myself first, because
Speaker:that is more socially acceptable.
Speaker:And so it was, I was very open to being ADHD.
Speaker:I shared openly.
Speaker:I was even without a formal diagnosis.
Speaker:And it was only probably about four or five years ago where I started to being
Speaker:open that I may be autistic as well.
Speaker:And the reason I became being open is because more knowledge about
Speaker:what autism in women actually is.
Speaker:Like we're not all Sheldon Coopers, like that old stereotype that's
Speaker:out there is just total BS.
Speaker:There is a portion of people who express their autism like that, but
Speaker:there are so many variations of how you actually show up as an autistic person.
Speaker:And so when I started doing this neurodivergent affirming approach of
Speaker:trying to provide for my child's life, I actually was like, Oh, I'm actually
Speaker:providing this for little Tan as well.
Speaker:And it was that process.
Speaker:And I went, Oh, I created neurodivergent empowered.
Speaker:I started walking the talk.
Speaker:And then I was like, I actually probably should get a formal piece of paper.
Speaker:And I really want to emphasize that diagnosis is a privilege.
Speaker:It is something that is not.
Speaker:Out there readily for people.
Speaker:The reason that I was able to get one, number one, I had the financial capacity
Speaker:to go through all the hoops that you have to go through to get a diagnosis.
Speaker:I also had the capacity and the tenacity, whereas a lot of moms,
Speaker:especially where burnt out, we're tired, we're just existing, supporting our
Speaker:children, which is enough then trying to actually do this for ourselves as well.
Speaker:And of course, I also knew about how to answer the questions that they were
Speaker:actually trying to get the answer for.
Speaker:Being an autistic woman as well, unless it said something to me exactly the way that
Speaker:my brain needs to hear it, I'm not going to give you the answer that you're after.
Speaker:And so I'll feel like a lot of people are missing diagnosis as well,
Speaker:because they don't put together.
Speaker:Oh, when you're asking me this particular question, you actually
Speaker:want this answer, for example, answer without all the systems and processes
Speaker:you've put into place to support yourself, which is part of the masking.
Speaker:So, because I had the capacity and probably intelligence to know
Speaker:to do all those things as well, I have been able to get my diagnosis
Speaker:literally this year officially at 47 years old, autistic and ADHD.
Speaker:Ah, congratulations.
Speaker:Thanks.
Speaker:When I have to share that when I got my diagnosis, because I'm so educated on what
Speaker:that actually means, it was a celebration.
Speaker:I didn't have the dread or the rest of it.
Speaker:I think I went through all the sadness and the anger previously
Speaker:when I was self diagnosing and it was just like validation.
Speaker:It was like everything that I thought and my whole life now makes sense.
Speaker:There's just so many things we could unpack there, but one thing that I think
Speaker:you said really well, is it's that like catch 22 around ADHD I wrote down that
Speaker:sometimes it can feel like we're just existing, like for our kids, like you're
Speaker:driving them and snacking them in.
Speaker:Therapy them and we're just existing for them.
Speaker:It definitely feels like that.
Speaker:I think that was well said.
Speaker:The expectation, I think from a lot of us is that the practitioner
Speaker:will problem solve that for us.
Speaker:But actually he was saying.
Speaker:often doesn't happen.
Speaker:But then you talk about being organized, which I say too, and
Speaker:I completely agree with you.
Speaker:But then what are ADHD people like?
Speaker:Disorganized.
Speaker:Disorganized.
Speaker:So the fact that we have to then prepare, problem solve, go into those deep, dark
Speaker:places, think of that stuff and have them ready and remember them, right?
Speaker:To then get the diagnosis is.
Speaker:No wonder it doesn't happen for us if we actually think about how that looks.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:I've got goosebumps on goosebumps because that's the reality.
Speaker:That's why I say it's a privilege.
Speaker:You have to have absolutely everything lined up perfectly with all the
Speaker:additional supports just to get the diagnosis, to get the additional supports.
Speaker:Yeah, and also you've got to have the education.
Speaker:You've got to be able to read the diagnostic framework.
Speaker:You have to be able to work it out.
Speaker:And then often as a lot of us have been left behind at school, as soon as
Speaker:someone talks in any numbers, I like my brain switches off because I think
Speaker:I've got like mass trauma from school.
Speaker:And you've got to have the financial means.
Speaker:It's ridiculous.
Speaker:I understand., let's move along to masking because I watch you on Tik
Speaker:Tok, I watch you on Instagram and I just feel like the overall theme on
Speaker:who you are from my personal view on seeing your socials is around masking.
Speaker:Briefly, what would be some common masking that you'd see that mums do?
Speaker:Common ones for mums would be clearly that everything's okay.
Speaker:That's across the board.
Speaker:I'm okay.
Speaker:The kids are okay.
Speaker:Everything's okay.
Speaker:And I feel like as a community, we're actually getting better at this.
Speaker:We're actually getting better to say, well, actually, I'm not okay.
Speaker:And that's been really great.
Speaker:The other part is, especially for moms, is things that bring us joy.
Speaker:When we grow up, we have almost this unwritten end point for certain things
Speaker:that it's like, okay, so these things aren't allowed to bring you joy anymore.
Speaker:It's For a lot of neurodivergent individuals, it could be things like
Speaker:plushies, like that seems to be a thing.
Speaker:It's okay for kids, but it's not okay for you.
Speaker:For myself, it was a lot of sensory things, like I have certain
Speaker:materials that I love to put on my skin, whether they're blankets,
Speaker:whether they're clothes, et cetera.
Speaker:It was kind of socially acceptable to not have those things in my life.
Speaker:That's a child's comfort.
Speaker:But when you're starting to unmask and actually look at what brings
Speaker:you joy in life, if you're honest, a lot of people don't even know if
Speaker:I was to put people on the spot and say, what brings you authentic joy?
Speaker:Most people don't know what that is anymore.
Speaker:We know that we have our kids and they give us joy, but they also
Speaker:give us challenges too, right?
Speaker:So there's both of those aspects, but if I was to take all of those other things
Speaker:away, your husband, your house, your picture, what actually brings you joy?
Speaker:And a part of unmasking for me has been actually really diving deep into who
Speaker:am I and what actually brings me joy.
Speaker:And it was really, really interesting what those things came out to be.
Speaker:I do burlesque dancing.
Speaker:That risque part for my ADHD, absolutely loves it.
Speaker:But then there's also the societal thing of, you get around in your underwear
Speaker:on stage in front of people as well.
Speaker:So it's.
Speaker:Who are you really when people are not telling you what is
Speaker:socially acceptable to be?
Speaker:I'm glad you brought up the burlesque dance game because I saw that on your
Speaker:socials and I do find it quite inspiring because I have a real fear around dancing.
Speaker:I remember being about 16 and I had this crush on this guy and we were all dancing
Speaker:at this party and I wasn't a cool kid.
Speaker:I want to be really clear.
Speaker:I was not a cool kid.
Speaker:Same.
Speaker:It was interesting because I watched your burlesque dancing video and I
Speaker:thought to myself, do I like dancing?
Speaker:Because I've got all these stories that I'm shit at it.
Speaker:because of one dude that probably sucked and he's nowhere now.
Speaker:I just think it's interesting when you think about what do you actually like?
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And that thing about only doing things you're good at.
Speaker:We do that as a society.
Speaker:I didn't even know what career I wanted to do because I figured
Speaker:it had to be something that I did naturally, I was really good at.
Speaker:And so I ended up in these really shitty jobs just because I was good at them.
Speaker:They brought me such misery.
Speaker:And then I was like, why am I actually doing this particular job?
Speaker:Like I worked in the tax office for goodness sake, at one stage.
Speaker:Really?
Speaker:I could never imagine you in a tax office.
Speaker:I know, right?
Speaker:Because I could do it and that's because society tells us you should
Speaker:do the things you're good at, but really I would love us all to go.
Speaker:Well, let's be kind of shit at some things and just do it because it feels good.
Speaker:That's part of unmasking.
Speaker:I am not the best dancer in the world.
Speaker:My burlesque girls know this.
Speaker:Yes, I can practice the routine and get on stage and be a part of the group.
Speaker:But I'm not one of those beautiful dancers that they have there
Speaker:that have been trained, etc.
Speaker:But I love it.
Speaker:And what I'm told consistently when I'm on stage, because I just kind of
Speaker:go with it and I'm fully immersed in the experience, that is what you see.
Speaker:You don't see my steps that I'm doing.
Speaker:You see that I'm smiling.
Speaker:I'm totally, it couldn't matter if it was one person or a thousand.
Speaker:I'm totally immersed in the experience.
Speaker:And I feel like if we could do more things like that, that bring us that authentic
Speaker:joy, our life would be so much better.
Speaker:Oh, I feel like you've just scrambled my brain a bit, Tanya.
Speaker:I love interviewing people because you know what's really interesting?
Speaker:Gigi, who I talk about quite often, and you've met Gigi, she's always a ride.
Speaker:She's very creative and her singing and dancing is not something that
Speaker:she's great at, but it's actually one of her strongest passions.
Speaker:We ended up putting in some singing lessons because she kept doing it.
Speaker:And we were like, Oh, maybe we should give her a bit of a chance here.
Speaker:Cause she's just terrible.
Speaker:And she's actually half decent now.
Speaker:I have nearly exact example of the same.
Speaker:Yeah, tell me.
Speaker:I didn't get into the choir at school.
Speaker:I was told repeatedly that I couldn't sing.
Speaker:Didn't sing.
Speaker:This year at 47, I booked into my first lot of singing lessons, and
Speaker:I'm actually learning how to sing.
Speaker:It's a skill that you can learn.
Speaker:So this thing that's brought me joy that I do ashamed in the shower or
Speaker:in the car with my son, whatever, I'm now learning to do properly
Speaker:and you can learn how to do it.
Speaker:That's incredible because that's really making sense because all
Speaker:three of my kids are really musical.
Speaker:And I've always been like, where do they get that from?
Speaker:But yet I'm the person with the music pumping, singing the music all the time,
Speaker:terribly only in front of my children who are, who love me unconditionally.
Speaker:They just think I'm amazing at everything.
Speaker:So is that then, I suppose, linked back to masking because you're truly allowing
Speaker:yourself, like how does that work in?
Speaker:So because I'm coming back to that authentic joy and I'm actually tapping
Speaker:in and putting my energy into what brings me joy, that's part of my
Speaker:unmasking process is that I've had a story to say I'm a shit singer, right?
Speaker:And I've never, ever tried to do anything about it.
Speaker:And then once I started, Looking and being honest that this actually brings me joy.
Speaker:I like to sing.
Speaker:I like how it makes me feel when I close my eyes and belt out a tune.
Speaker:The fact that I'm not good at it is irrelevant, but I
Speaker:can learn to be good at it.
Speaker:So part of my unmasking process is actually putting myself in positions
Speaker:where I can actually do the things that bring me joy more often.
Speaker:And through that, I'm learning the skills, the tools, the systems.
Speaker:To be good at the things that bring me joy.
Speaker:And that's why as adults, I believe we do things like drugs and alcohol
Speaker:because we know we're following the things that bring us joy, but we
Speaker:don't have the capacity to put the two and two together in a sober state.
Speaker:So if you think about that exact example, you have a, you get
Speaker:on the drink with the girls and you'll go and dancing in your mind.
Speaker:It's irrelevant whether you're good or not.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:You just go for it.
Speaker:It's irrelevant in that moment because the alcohol or the drugs have cut off
Speaker:that reality and you are singing like you're the best singer in the world.
Speaker:So what my wish for every single person is that you could actually
Speaker:bring that magic into your everyday life without the drugs and alcohol.
Speaker:To actually be brave enough to do this and be you and follow your
Speaker:passions, your authentic passion, even the ones that don't make sense.
Speaker:Let's say for somebody who's listening to this, he's a little
Speaker:bit thrown like myself, right?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:I thought I knew the way this was going, but now I'm not.
Speaker:Surprise.
Speaker:Surprise.
Speaker:I love these Let's say if you're starting to unmask, and as you said,
Speaker:you're like, I don't even know, because I thought it was things I was good
Speaker:at, or a lot of people have got those common ones that are probably surface
Speaker:level, like I like walking on the beach.
Speaker:How do you start to un, to process?
Speaker:Great question.
Speaker:You got to go back to childhood.
Speaker:So a lot of people do this in child work, etc.
Speaker:But the basic level you can do by yourself is.
Speaker:When I was a child, before the world told me who I should be, what brought me
Speaker:joy and allow yourself to go into that childlike, even, infantile state of what
Speaker:actually did I do, that made me happy.
Speaker:What were the conversations I taught?
Speaker:What were the things I was interested in?
Speaker:And yes, you will have an adult version of it.
Speaker:I'm not saying you're going to like the same cartoons and stuff anymore.
Speaker:But there'll be a particular way of being that you were, that brought you
Speaker:authentic joy, was you without your mask.
Speaker:Part of my child's, as well, when he was really little, and I have
Speaker:permission for him to share this , with people, is that he liked the
Speaker:feeling of wearing a dress, right?
Speaker:He was never wanted to be a girl.
Speaker:He was just a boy that liked the feeling of what we called pretty.
Speaker:He went to school and I can tell you within the first year that was
Speaker:gone, that was totally gone from him.
Speaker:And it's only through our cosplay this seven years later that
Speaker:he's actually even starting to embrace that side of him again.
Speaker:And when he's not thinking about what other people think, I see
Speaker:these glimpses of just freedom.
Speaker:And that's what we're all chasing here.
Speaker:That freedom of.
Speaker:This is who I am without permission from anyone else.
Speaker:That's really special.
Speaker:Isn't it?
Speaker:You know what I was thinking about was, Gigi really presses my buttons as they
Speaker:do, where she's really into art and craft and singing and all of their creatives.
Speaker:I said to her, Oh, I've never really done any painting before.
Speaker:I've never done any scrapbooking or all this stuff she's into.
Speaker:I woke up two o'clock in the morning a few months ago and I just remembered vividly.
Speaker:watching play school as a kid and you know how they like have it all lined up
Speaker:so they've got the little toilet roll they've got the little stickers and then
Speaker:they've got like this table they have everything out there together and then
Speaker:they put it together slowly and I remember just saying to my mum I'd do anything
Speaker:to be able to have one of those tables and do that craft she was a real clean
Speaker:freak and she's like oh no no no we're not having glue we're not having paint
Speaker:we're not having this we're not having that and it's been really great to live in
Speaker:the house that I'm in, because it's in a great spot and my husband's to renovate.
Speaker:But I keep saying to him, I want to leave the house as old and
Speaker:shit for as long as possible.
Speaker:Because at the moment, we get the paints out, we get the glues out.
Speaker:I don't really care.
Speaker:But as soon as we renovate, I know that will be different.
Speaker:I never had those opportunities to explore that side because it was a different time.
Speaker:I make choices around that consciously of, do I want to, because I love
Speaker:to renovate so ADHD side of me, it's really good for our brain to
Speaker:change our environment quite often.
Speaker:And I love doing that.
Speaker:But I'm also conscious of, I never want to get to the stage where this choice
Speaker:is going to inhibit this creativity or this memory making opportunity.
Speaker:I know me, once I make something beautiful, I don't want you
Speaker:to stop it being beautiful.
Speaker:Oh, no, I agree.
Speaker:That's why I can't, I can't relax if I've got a beautifully renovated house that
Speaker:I've spent a couple of hundred grand on, no way, no one's putting paint in there.
Speaker:would be the kind of biggest changes that you've seen within
Speaker:yourself since doing the unmasking?
Speaker:I find that relationships changed.
Speaker:I don't people please anymore as much, or certainly am
Speaker:conscious of the people pleasing.
Speaker:I found that, some people left my life because of that, because it's not actually
Speaker:this beautiful, spiritual, fuzzy process.
Speaker:This is actually sometimes mass exodus out of your life, because
Speaker:depending on how much of a mask you've worn, Is how different you
Speaker:are to who you authentically are.
Speaker:So you've actually created these friendships, relationships,
Speaker:careers around a persona that's not actually you a lot of the time.
Speaker:And when you start to go, Oh, this is actually who I am.
Speaker:The people fell in love with who you presented yourself to be.
Speaker:They didn't fall in love with actually who you are.
Speaker:So that's something to be aware of, that it's not always a positive.
Speaker:I have people in my life that honestly come to me and go, well,
Speaker:fuck Tan, now I've got no one left.
Speaker:I'm like, yeah, because you didn't present who you authentically
Speaker:were in the first place.
Speaker:So those relationships were actually not real in the first place.
Speaker:If you've actually been really quite fake, because you've learned to do that, the
Speaker:relationships you have are surface level and therefore not authentically real.
Speaker:So that's something that happened for me as part of this process.
Speaker:I had people absolutely leave my life, but then I actually had
Speaker:less number of people but really authentically aligned, people come in.
Speaker:So my ride and die turned up when I turned
Speaker:That's really powerful.
Speaker:My husband said to me about six months ago, I'm confused why some
Speaker:of your friendships seem one way and then I realized that I had actually
Speaker:been just in this helping role.
Speaker:Lately I've been saying, I'm really sorry, but I'm not in a place to help you.
Speaker:What I notice is some people will come back.
Speaker:There's been people that haven't come back and said, I'll help you.
Speaker:They've just let me know when you can help me.
Speaker:Or there's been people that have jumped in and gone, well, what do you need?
Speaker:I can give you a hand, but you're right.
Speaker:There's been people I've been friends with for a long, long time who I've
Speaker:realized my role is helping them and they actually don't know anything about me.
Speaker:And they're the people I'm talking about for myself as well.
Speaker:One thing that helps me now and I ask of my circle is to actually check in
Speaker:before we lay our shit on each other.
Speaker:Do you have the capacity to hold the space for this?
Speaker:and not be offended if they say no.
Speaker:That's when you're being honest and real with the people you love and care
Speaker:about is actually say I love you but I don't have the capacity right now.
Speaker:Can we park this until I can show up with you for you with everything
Speaker:I've got because at the moment you're gonna get a shit version of me.
Speaker:If we can be more honest and be leading those relationships more
Speaker:we'll have way better connections.
Speaker:So then you're saying that by responding differently, people are
Speaker:either coming in or you're making new friends or it's like a way of, working
Speaker:out who is who in the zoo, really.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And that process started when, way back when my son was diagnosed.
Speaker:And then suddenly I really worked out who were my ride or die people, because
Speaker:When I started showing up and going, this is acceptable and not acceptable
Speaker:in my circle with my child, how your behavior, you're this, you're that,
Speaker:this is how we will show up as well.
Speaker:I really found out who was going to be there for us, because if you were going
Speaker:to show up in, in our life and say that my son couldn't be this, couldn't be
Speaker:that, whatever, that just wasn't going to work for us, because I needed to
Speaker:create this beautiful safe space for him to be who he authentically was.
Speaker:And that is not socially acceptable for some people, and I had to be
Speaker:okay with them not being in our life.
Speaker:Sometimes I feel like people with ADHD, not all, not everyone, no one's the same.
Speaker:For sure.
Speaker:We distract ourselves with other problems.
Speaker:So sometimes I've noticed myself go and catch up with somebody
Speaker:who I know is in a crisis, so I don't have to look at my own self.
Speaker:And I always feel better about myself thinking, I've got less
Speaker:to worry about than she does.
Speaker:And then I feel my time fixing her up.
Speaker:Instead of then sorting my own self out.
Speaker:And then I realized, what am I getting from that?
Speaker:Because I'm saying I'm helping her, but actually I'm actually
Speaker:getting something too.
Speaker:Yes, for sure.
Speaker:And great self awareness.
Speaker:And I've absolutely done that, still do that on occasion as well, is that it's
Speaker:a distraction from doing the thing.
Speaker:And don't get me wrong.
Speaker:If that person got something out of your focus and attention,
Speaker:then that's a beautiful thing.
Speaker:But as long as you're consciously aware of this is why I'm doing it.
Speaker:Yes, it is for this person, but I'm actually distracting from one, giving
Speaker:my brain a break from what I have to do, which sometimes needed or two
Speaker:is like giving my brain a break from doing the hard things I need to do
Speaker:for myself to make my life better.
Speaker:And my life got better when I started doing more of the hard things, having the
Speaker:hard conversations, making hard choices.
Speaker:When I made the decision to take my son out of school, I did
Speaker:not want to make that decision.
Speaker:I didn't want to be the person to show up and go, you know what?
Speaker:I think we can do better somewhere else.
Speaker:And it took me a lot to actually sit in my own shit and go, what's stopping you?
Speaker:It was my lack of self confidence.
Speaker:I knew what was right for my child.
Speaker:My intuition was bang on point, but I had a lot of work to do for
Speaker:myself at looking my own shit.
Speaker:And going, this is me, and showing up and doing the hard stuff.
Speaker:With the shaky legs or whatever it is, just showing up regardless.
Speaker:I think the hardest decisions I've made in my life, I've not
Speaker:ever regretted one of them.
Speaker:Like the truly hard ones, like bravery, what you're talking about.
Speaker:I've never gone in there, made a call like that and then regretted it ever.
Speaker:I totally agree with what you're saying there because it feels awful, but if
Speaker:it feels awful, doesn't necessarily mean it's the wrong decision.
Speaker:I've had countless times where I get really self conscious and I cry and then
Speaker:something comes out of it after the cry.
Speaker:I don't know if it's like surrender, I'm assuming, getting rid of expectations.
Speaker:But as soon as I have my big cry from fear, cause that's all that is, I'm okay.
Speaker:I will do it, but sometimes allowing myself to get to that point is key too.
Speaker:How does it feel to unmask?
Speaker:What are some examples of what you do differently?
Speaker:For me now, it's been a process at the beginning when I started
Speaker:unmasking, it was very, very scary to be seen for the first time.
Speaker:I had this massive thing where I knew I had to be seen for who I am.
Speaker:And I didn't really know what that looked like at first.
Speaker:I didn't know what brought me joy.
Speaker:I didn't know who I authentically was, because being neurodivergent and
Speaker:autistic neurodivergent, I'm really good at syncing up to Other people.
Speaker:So why I was so successful when I was young is that I just made really good
Speaker:choices of who I would mimic in life.
Speaker:I would mimic people who were doing really well in business.
Speaker:I would mimic people who were doing really well in the sport
Speaker:that I played, which was hockey.
Speaker:And I would just copy what they did and I therefore had the same success.
Speaker:As I got older and I started this unmasking process, it was all about, okay,
Speaker:now you're going to have no one to copy.
Speaker:who is this person?
Speaker:And it was incredibly challenging.
Speaker:The end point now years into it is that I feel free.
Speaker:I feel like I'm at the stage where I've had enough people leave and
Speaker:enough evidence to know that I'm going to be okay no matter what.
Speaker:As long as I'm authentic, as long as I'm being true to myself.
Speaker:So the outcome of unmasking is freedom, is fulfillment, is happiness.
Speaker:But I do not want to underplay that the journey to get
Speaker:there is pretty fucking hard.
Speaker:It's hard.
Speaker:It's looking at yourself about who you authentically are.
Speaker:There's a reason you masked in the first place, and I feel like a lot
Speaker:of people gloss over this part.
Speaker:You masked certain parts of yourself to be accepted by people around you.
Speaker:And then if you're going to start showing up and saying, well, I'm not
Speaker:going to put that mask on anymore.
Speaker:That the same people will leave that you had to put the
Speaker:mask on for the first place.
Speaker:It's so interesting that you talk about that because they talk about the
Speaker:chameleon effect of autistic women.
Speaker:When I first read a few of the books, I've been reading a lot of memoirs
Speaker:at the moment, and I read a couple of the books and I realized that I
Speaker:had always latched onto a partner and then became what I thought they needed
Speaker:because I didn't think I was enough.
Speaker:And I would just actually become their other half.
Speaker:And then I would go and learn whatever they were into so hard and so intensely.
Speaker:I would then be really good at it.
Speaker:My ex partner was a very high up, personal development speaker.
Speaker:A lot of people know him.
Speaker:I became his top salesman.
Speaker:I worked very hard in his company and I got to a point where I thought, I don't
Speaker:think his business can survive without me.
Speaker:And he still left and he did survive.
Speaker:And that was a real wake up call for me because I've only realized in the last
Speaker:six months that that's what I've done.
Speaker:my entire life.
Speaker:I think it's been so disarming to then realize I have no idea who I am.
Speaker:Like if you strip it back, it's fucking terrifying.
Speaker:I thought I was a strong, independent, assertive woman.
Speaker:Only, if I'm playing a fucking role.
Speaker:If I'm not playing a role, like I'm lost in the wind.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Then you kind of go back to playing a role because it's comfortable.
Speaker:Autistic women in our relationships do do that.
Speaker:Either they sync up to you or you sync up to them.
Speaker:Usually we attract another neurodivergent person as well.
Speaker:So that, that's why the syncing occurs.
Speaker:I know for myself, and cause most of us are autodidact, so we can literally
Speaker:teach ourselves anything we need to, it's part of our evolutionary survival.
Speaker:When I was 17, 18, I dated someone who was really good at art and suddenly I
Speaker:started copying his drawings and stuff.
Speaker:What you said, getting good at what he's interested in, and suddenly
Speaker:I can draw and I've never done anything like that in my life.
Speaker:Never done it since
Speaker:because I synced up to someone else who was really exceptional in another area.
Speaker:And that's how I learned how to surf, I dated a surfy and suddenly I'm a surfy.
Speaker:I've done that in friendships as well.
Speaker:I've always had one very strong woman friendship.
Speaker:They have changed as I've gone along.
Speaker:But I have linked, synced up to them as well.
Speaker:And I feel like that's something that not a lot of people talk about with autistic
Speaker:women is that we do have this such an incredible and it is a skill to sync up to
Speaker:other people and it's almost like we can learn all of the fantastic things about
Speaker:them and embody them without ever having to have that as our interest ourselves.
Speaker:But then you can see how people are undetected.
Speaker:Because people always say to me, I'm so good socially.
Speaker:And I'm like, am I?
Speaker:Or do I just know who I have to be?
Speaker:If I'm true to myself, I'm absolutely exhausted after a social interaction.
Speaker:But can I show up socially?
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:I've learned to do that.
Speaker:I've been around people.
Speaker:I've wanted to be around people who are in these situations.
Speaker:So I've learned what I needed to do to be in those situations.
Speaker:But does that bring me joy?
Speaker:I'm at the stage where I know it absolutely does not.
Speaker:I'm completely exhausted afterwards.
Speaker:I have to be Netflixing the next day in my PJs to recover.
Speaker:But when I've been in a relationship where he is very social, I would do
Speaker:back to back barbecues and going out and this and that, and then wonder why
Speaker:I am completely depleted all the time.
Speaker:I did an interview with Dr.
Speaker:Jacinta Thompson and she said something that really changed my whole world.
Speaker:She was like, if you are autistic and you have ADHD and you take ADHD
Speaker:medication, you like pure stimulant stimulants, not the non stimulants that
Speaker:have got kind of like both effects.
Speaker:She's like, you may find that your ADHD shield comes down with the impulsivity,
Speaker:the hyperactivity, the go, go, go, go, go.
Speaker:And then you're left like, a deer in headlights because all of that has gone.
Speaker:When she said that, I just was like, knocked for a six because I was like,
Speaker:that's actually what's happened to me.
Speaker:And then you're like realizing that you are so confused with who
Speaker:you are and what you're doing.
Speaker:I don't have stimulant medication myself, but my son does, but I've been around
Speaker:it enough to know that once your ADHD medication is supporting your ADHD, if
Speaker:you are autistic as well, that comes out, or if you have anxiety as well,
Speaker:that comes out, because everything else is quietened, and suddenly what
Speaker:was kind of hiding in the background, like, don't see me, is like, ta da!
Speaker:Cannot mask it anymore.
Speaker:So If you start doing that and behaving differently.
Speaker:Do you just let people go that aren't cool with it?
Speaker:It's a lot easier process if you have one or two key people that
Speaker:you know are your ride or die.
Speaker:That kind of know who you are already, that helps the process because you
Speaker:can then have conversations with them and say, Look, I'm going to start this
Speaker:process and I want to know if you're going to be with me along this journey.
Speaker:Because I don't know what I'm going to end up being like at the end.
Speaker:And if you have someone like a, a relationship, which is rock solid
Speaker:or a bestie or something that has been through a lot of things and
Speaker:knows who you are, then that makes that process a whole lot easier.
Speaker:I didn't have that at that point.
Speaker:It was literally my son and I, I suppose having the faith that the freedom
Speaker:you get at the end of the process.
Speaker:It's hard when you're going through the fear to understand that the outcome
Speaker:is going to be worth the process because the journey is quite hard.
Speaker:It's no less than terrifying to be seen for who you authentically are.
Speaker:It's figuratively like standing in front of everyone naked
Speaker:saying, this is all my bits yeah.
Speaker:Who's going to still want me after this?
Speaker:That's pretty terrifying.
Speaker:Isn't it?
Speaker:When you say it like that and then you think you're older and you
Speaker:feel like you're more mature and everything and you're like, no,
Speaker:that feels like I'm about 12.
Speaker:Yeah, it does.
Speaker:My boobs are breastfed, I look different.
Speaker:Yeah, we don't look as good as what we did when we were 18.
Speaker:I would have preferred to do that then.
Speaker:And granted, if we can get our kids to do this, we would be doing the
Speaker:best service as parents possible.
Speaker:If we can empower our kids To show up who they authentically are while being safe,
Speaker:because it's not always safe to unmask.
Speaker:If you're in a position where, you have a family that's not
Speaker:supportive or a school that's not supportive, it's not safe to unmask.
Speaker:I want to put that out there.
Speaker:So we need to have our kids in safe situations, but empowering them to go.
Speaker:You are.
Speaker:Incredible the way you are and yeah, you're quirky and you this, that,
Speaker:whatever, but you'll ride and die.
Speaker:We'll show up if you show up.
Speaker:And as a mom, I'm going to love every version of you no matter what.
Speaker:So show me who you are.
Speaker:That could be one of the best gifts we can give our kids because I know
Speaker:the process I went through in my forties when I did this, I'm asking
Speaker:process and it was horrendous.
Speaker:Oh, I've got all these qualifications and I've played hockey for Australia,
Speaker:and then go, actually guys, this is me without all the shit.
Speaker:This is actually who I am.
Speaker:Terrifying.
Speaker:Even for my family to see me in my authentic self, my family
Speaker:could be very judgmental.
Speaker:So me starting to show up just with my sparkly shoes or different
Speaker:clothes to events, like showing, well, guys, this is who I am.
Speaker:That was probably my hardest part because they're people I
Speaker:actually value the opinion of.
Speaker:These other people that don't really know me, it's not as hard
Speaker:to go, well, this is who I am.
Speaker:But when I show up, it's who I am in front of people I actually
Speaker:value the opinion of, that's hard.
Speaker:That's, that's tough.
Speaker:What would be damaging about masking long term?
Speaker:Mental health all the way.
Speaker:To mask, I had to drink a lot of alcohol.
Speaker:I'm very, very open about that.
Speaker:To be social consistently, I drunk getting ready, I drunk on the way, I drunk a lot
Speaker:there to maintain, and then I usually had to do a bit of a hair of the dog
Speaker:to maintain it the next day and repeat.
Speaker:So my health.
Speaker:From constantly having to have alcohol as part of my life.
Speaker:That was my mask.
Speaker:So people who knew me before I was still kind of crazy before, but it was fun.
Speaker:Crazy.
Speaker:Cause I was alcohol crazy, right?
Speaker:I was doing crazy, random things.
Speaker:And I was a girl that people would go, Oh, go and do this.
Speaker:And I would do it.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I was that friend.
Speaker:And then also my mental health of not knowing who I was.
Speaker:I've had and trigger warning, I've had a few situations in my twenties
Speaker:when I was so confused of not knowing who I was that I actually didn't know
Speaker:if I wanted to continue because I was like, I don't know who the fuck I am.
Speaker:And I had a moment in the bathtub where I was like, had my wine and
Speaker:I'm like, who am I without this wine?
Speaker:And I, and I had this, I'm no one.
Speaker:I'm literally no one.
Speaker:And so why bother existing as no one?
Speaker:So I feel like there's massive, massive risks for mental health of
Speaker:not knowing who you authentically are.
Speaker:It's my personal view that long term masking can be why so many autistic
Speaker:girls get into trouble, moving into high school and just thrusting them
Speaker:into the mainstream environment, and not having anywhere to put their
Speaker:mask down or having to mask at home.
Speaker:Then it's like, oh, surprise, surprise, they're anxious and depressed.
Speaker:I wonder what happened.
Speaker:What do they have to be anxious, depressed about?
Speaker:Because they are exhausted by putting on these personalities.
Speaker:It's a really good point you make, I'm one of the cliche autistic women,
Speaker:multiple sexual assaults, and the reason when you're younger and you
Speaker:put yourself in these positions is because you were told everything
Speaker:that is authentic about you is wrong.
Speaker:So if I'm constantly, no, you don't feel that.
Speaker:No, that's sensory.
Speaker:That's not an issue.
Speaker:No, that's not a big thing.
Speaker:You shouldn't feel like that.
Speaker:If you're constantly told that, then you just totally disconnect
Speaker:from your intuition and because we have those instincts that
Speaker:even kicking for our safety.
Speaker:And I was in so many situations that were preventable because I didn't
Speaker:know to trust my intuition because my intuition was always wrong.
Speaker:Well, so society told me.
Speaker:So I feel like real safety is also an issue from high masking
Speaker:women, especially it's because we learn to not trust our instincts.
Speaker:We learn to not trust ourselves.
Speaker:That can't be right, because I'm told that's wrong.
Speaker:So this feeling I'm getting of going into this position with
Speaker:this man, away from my friends.
Speaker:He knows better, right?
Speaker:Because I never know the right thing.
Speaker:I look back and think to myself, how did I not know when that person
Speaker:said to me, can you come over here?
Speaker:I just want to talk to you about something away from my friends in the dark.
Speaker:I literally thought he wanted me to talk to him about something
Speaker:that I feel like an idiot after.
Speaker:And then I think it was all my fault because I'm always wrong.
Speaker:I should have seen that coming.
Speaker:But when you're a literal thinker and you actually think someone wants, it's stupid.
Speaker:You look back and think you're dumb.
Speaker:And people say it's a naivety, and yes, it is.
Speaker:But what is naivety from?
Speaker:It's from the disconnect from your truth, from what you
Speaker:know to be true for yourself.
Speaker:When you're constantly told that is wrong, what you feel is
Speaker:wrong, what you think is wrong.
Speaker:And society does that too, especially autistic girls.
Speaker:That when we have these feelings come up as well of, okay, he's
Speaker:asked me to go over there.
Speaker:I believe what he is saying to me, you learn that other people's truths
Speaker:are more important than your own.
Speaker:And I feel like it's a massive thing that autistic women especially need
Speaker:to teach our young girls is that, no, sister, you need to know your truth.
Speaker:Last question, Tanya.
Speaker:What message do you have to share for women with ADHD or with
Speaker:just general neurodivergence?
Speaker:My message is to be brave enough.
Speaker:To follow your authentic truth and follow your authentic joy , yes,
Speaker:it's a scary, scary journey, but it's so worth it and you're worth it.
Speaker:And I feel like a lot of ADHD women, especially, have had that
Speaker:message subconsciously said to them repeatedly that you're not worth it.
Speaker:You make these mistakes and you're a burden in a lot of ways.
Speaker:But I want to remind you that you are absolutely worth having
Speaker:this beautiful life of freedom.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:Sometimes I struggle to do that for myself, but then
Speaker:I push myself for my kids.
Speaker:Because I think if I'm not doing it, how can I expect my children to?
Speaker:So at the moment, I do it for them, but I'm hoping that there'll be a time that
Speaker:I will truly Being able to do that, because that's, beautiful, but it's hard.
Speaker:But I think this has been a great first step, this interview.
Speaker:I really appreciate your openness and honesty.
Speaker:It's been really quite mind blowing, to be honest.
Speaker:That's great.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:I've had a really great time too.
Speaker:I'll put in all the episode notes on Tanya and her business
Speaker:neurodivergent empowered.
Speaker:My kids have been there.
Speaker:It is truly a safe space.
Speaker:And it's probably the only space I've ever seen that's run
Speaker:purely by neurodivergent people.
Speaker:So super special.
Speaker:Thank you so much for your time, Tanya.
Speaker:I really appreciate it.
Speaker:Thanks for having me.
Speaker:The key message here is you are not alone.
Speaker:Thank you for listening.
Speaker:If you enjoyed this episode, follow us on Instagram or head
Speaker:over and join our amazing ADHD Months podcast Facebook community.
Speaker:Everything you do matters and helps to spread the word about what
Speaker:neurodiversity in females looks like.
