59. Transform Your ADHD Relationship Challenges into Strengths with Jessica Burgess

Hello and welcome to

the ADHD Mums podcast.

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Today we are very blessed

with Miss Jessica Burgess

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back and welcome to you Jess.

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Thanks, Jane.

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Great to be back.

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So for anyone who hasn't listened to

Jess's previous episodes, I'm going to

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put the previous episodes in the notes.

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So if you enjoyed listening

to it and you're like, I'd

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like to hear more of hers.

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We have two other episodes

that we have done.

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One was on ADHD and high performance and

the other one was on ADHD and anxiety.

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So I'm going to list them into the

notes in case you want to go back

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and I'll put all Jess's contact

details in case you love it and

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want to do some more with Jess.

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For those of you who haven't listened

to her former episode, Jess is the CEO

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of My Peaceful Mind, which is centered

around high achievers, CEOs, and

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entrepreneurs with mindset tools and

practices of psychology and hypnosis.

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to become mentally

thriving high performers.

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She has programs, retreats,

workshops, and educational tools.

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My peaceful mind is motivated to

change the hustle and achievement

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based success culture by changing

the beliefs and drivers behind it.

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So Jess is a psychologist.

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I've known for a long time.

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It feels like I think

I've, I hide you about.

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Four and a half years ago, I got

everything off my children's birth.

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So I'm pretty sure I was breastfeeding

a newborn when I met you and we've done

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so much work together and I sometimes.

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Like listen to what you say and then it

takes me about six months of thinking

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about it and then it eventually hits

when I'm ready So I love a lot of

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your philosophy on psychology, and I'm

really blessed and happy to have you

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here Today's episode is on Romantic

relationships, which is going to be

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a really interesting one So if you've

got anything you would like to share

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opening up things To begin with, Jess.

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Uh, so it's a really exciting

but very important topic, I feel.

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It's a lot unspoken and a lot of conflict

can be avoided and we could strengthen

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a lot more relationships from this talk.

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So thank you so much all for joining us.

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Jane is the absolute legend.

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I do actually have a flashback to my

first interview with her and she was

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definitely holding the baby at the time.

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I love it.

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Just very real from the get go.

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Very real from the get go.

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Well, I didn't have any moments

without the baby, so I was be like,

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I'd mute the baby, put the baby to

sleep, anyway, it's a whole thing.

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Good times.

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I'd like to say it was good times.

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It's more like, I hate

using the word trauma.

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Like people go, Oh, I've got trauma

from like going out to the mailbox

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and kicking my foot on the letterbox.

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But I feel like there was actually

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that baby and started my business.

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Cause that like, that does

give me some cold shivers.

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Anyway, let's move on because

that was terrible time.

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So Jess, let's do some full

disclosure straight up.

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So I have ADHD and I'm super

hyperactive, more than inattentive

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or I might be inattentive, but my

anxiety drives over the top of that

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and I can rely on that as a motivator.

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So if I am a bit inattentive and

I slow to get started, my anxiety

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generally pushes me forward.

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My husband, who I have

diagnosed with ADHD.

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Not professionally at all.

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I think he's more inattentive, ADHD,

the medication works for him, which

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is kind of hilarious considering he

doesn't believe he has it, but him

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and I are very much yin and yang.

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Where would you and your husband kind of

sit on that before we kind of open up?

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I feel like there are a lot of

parallels with our relationship.

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I'm.

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Probably a bit more like

your lovely partner.

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I don't have the hyperactivity, but

the inattentiveness is definitely

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something that my husband would

say is present and then Vice versa.

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My husband is brilliant.

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They're very energetic.

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Also undiagnosed, but he

meets some of those criteria.

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So the ADHD diagnosis Yeah, I can

definitely see the parallels there.

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Yeah, absolutely the you understand

each other, but it's also I do

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experience a fair bit of friction

with some of the indetentiveness,

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which can be a bit of a ride.

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Let's do a relatable story just

to like kick it off, right?

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I always love a relatable story.

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So yesterday my husband and I have

always, we always battling time, right?

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Because I'm very hyperactive.

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Any moment is a moment that can be put

into a product productive moment, right?

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Especially over a weekend,

because I want to lose my shit.

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Because I'm just like, just

overdoing the kid stuff and I'm

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like wanting to use my brain.

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And anyway, so we actually have

two opposite ends because during

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the week I'm super productive and

hyperactive in any time I get alone.

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Any moment is used into productivity

and I often don't feed myself, do basic

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self care because I'm so busy trying

to get the most out of all the moments.

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My husband, super the opposite.

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So he will do everything

else he needs to do.

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He's very interested in self care and

exercise, and he will cook himself up

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a beautiful lunch every day, which like

I can't even heat up a meal and eat

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it because I don't have five minutes.

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I can't stand it because I think I could

do that later when the kids are here.

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I need to do something

with my brain anyway.

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So we have this friction every

weekend because he will often have

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left tasks for so long that they

become urgent over the weekend.

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Then he will often put in

a time frame, for example.

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Oh, I have to get it done

by Sunday five o'clock.

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So by putting a time frame in,

it forces him to finish, but

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that's actually on the weekend.

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So I've flogged myself during the

week to try and become present.

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So I don't have to be doing

stuff, even though mentally

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I'm really wanting to do it.

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And then I usually take the kids

to the park so he can finish off

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all the tasks that he hasn't done.

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I did that on Saturday after he'd already

had the whole morning off the kids.

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I then backed it up to the kids to

the park, really felt like I'd won

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the mom wife of the year doing it.

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to come back for him to say that he

hadn't even finished the tasks and he

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got distracted and he'd gone and done

something else unrelated and he still

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hadn't finished and I would need to

then isolate more time for him tomorrow.

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To send a simple email that I could

have done in about five seconds and that

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there was very grating, very grating

because you're same, same, but different.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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The way that you're seeing and approaching

situations, there can be quite a

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contrast and you feel like you're both

contributing and doing the best you can.

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But there can be different

challenges that come up with it,

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which is, and I want to commend you.

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Why for the year you did what you could

in that moment, you went out, you know,

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and I'm sure Jess had good reason for

why it didn't happen the way that it did.

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Oh yeah.

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Which is why sometimes it's got

to be even greater flexibility.

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Well, actually.

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Letting go of expectations

and embracing flexibility.

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Absolutely.

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I actually was proud of myself

because the last few months I've

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been better with saying what I need.

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So I actually said to him on Sunday,

I was a little dirty about it.

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I said to him on Sunday, just to

let you know, I'm feeling a little

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frustrated because I did take the kids.

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For a couple of hours to the park,

then you went out for dinner with

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your friends, which I was totally fine

about, for then you to not finish what

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you said you were gonna do because

you got distracted and he's like, I

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was very frustrated too with myself.

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Okay, anyway, but I did kind of name

the feeling rather than just go, it's

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fine, honey, and then die inside.

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Yeah, I'm really that's key.

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One of the key cornerstones of

foundations of a healthy relationship.

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It's having those tough conversations,

but I love jumping into the

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communication focus of this

podcast using those I statements.

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So you're not blaming.

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You're not pointing the finger.

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He's not going to get on the defensive

and like you acknowledge straight away.

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He actually honored.

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and validated that.

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He was frustrated too and he could

see why you'd be frustrated with it.

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There was no battle.

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There was no defensiveness.

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It was just the I statement allowed

you to express what was going on and

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for him to acknowledge it as well.

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Then I usually come up with a

bit of a plan moving forward.

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Yeah, it's interesting because

we, he did start to get a

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little defensive to be fair.

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And then I said to him, you know, when I

stomp around the house, And you say to me

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what's wrong and I don't look at you and

I'm quite short my answers and I won't

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tell you what's wrong for at least half

an hour and then you have to guess no,

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you know that that I do and it's like,

oh, yes, yes, I know that very well.

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And I said, I'm trying

to tell you how I feel.

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So I don't do that.

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And I was like, so I'm not blaming you.

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I'm just saying how I feel.

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And then he's, it's, it's, he's very,

he's a very emotional, intelligent man.

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I am.

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Very lucky.

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Cause I know a lot, some partners

can't go there, but it did kind of

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take the lid off the anger that I was.

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I was feeling, if I'm honest.

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Yeah, it's great how you

explained it as well.

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You got to normalise this

new pattern of communication.

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Because maybe he didn't understand

your intention to begin with.

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You're like, I'm giving

you an I statement.

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Can't you see?

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Like, I'm taking responsibility.

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And this way he feels safe enough.

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And we'll know the pattern in the future.

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So hopefully, lower the barriers

and the protector down to be able

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to actually hear what you're saying.

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Well, I think it was the lesser evil.

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Because it was like It was like, okay,

well, I listened to her for two, three

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minutes now and acknowledge her, or she's

going to stomp around, which I don't like.

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So I think he's thinking, oh, well,

I'll just, I'll just apologize,

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which I suppose is, is just.

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Everyone kind of learning.

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So what, Jess, in your professional

opinion, because you are the

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expert here, how do you think ADHD

impacts romantic relationships?

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Like, what do we need to

do to start to build those?

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Because that doesn't

always come natural to us.

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Let's just start with

the basics of education.

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From my understanding, a lot of

people, they go quite a few years

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without there actually being.

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a diagnosis or even recognition

of what they're experiencing.

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And then there's the

whole process of learning.

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What does this actually mean for me?

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And like we were saying in a partnership,

someone ADHD, someone not, someone ADD.

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And so every partnership

and container is unique.

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To them, but if you're not

aware of what's going on, you,

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there's going to be mislabeling.

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It's going to be misunderstanding

and misinterpretation of

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certain that are going on.

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Someone might think that you're

being disinterested without

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actually understanding that.

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Yeah, you might not be overly

focused, but you're giving what you

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can in your capacity in that moment.

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But your interest is somewhere

else, or they can think that

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you're an inconsiderate partner.

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If you always.

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You're for different things,

so you're not fully invested.

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So the first step is starting to have

some real honest communication and

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just being clear and educating yourself

as much as possible about how does my

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personal ADHD experience show up for me.

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And what, yeah, how does that impact

how I relate in my relationship

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and what do I take ownership for?

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And then start communicating.

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Yeah.

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I think that's great.

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I think that's great.

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So when you're talking about education,

how would you get educated on yourself?

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Cause sometimes it's taken me a lot,

actually, to be honest, I don't think

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I've only become aware since doing

this podcast because I talk to so

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many different people about ADHD.

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I've become a bit clearer.

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How would you kind of get educated

if you weren't really sure?

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So we've had previous podcasts on

talking to psychologists, getting

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the diagnosis, even just in sessions

starting to bring up, I think I might.

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Having some ADHD symptoms.

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Can we explore this further?

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There's also many, many resources

online as a starting point.

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If you're not feeling ready to go talk

to a psychologist just yet, and then

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you could also start listening to some

podcasts from experts in the field.

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Jane.

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To start seeing, getting more

experience and some feedback.

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Not a plug, such a plug.

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Getting some feedback.

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Because the most important point

is it will all look different.

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All our experiences are unique.

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There are different traumas.

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There are different learning and

developmental outcomes, so it's not, we

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don't want to kind of just keep it as like

a, Oh, what's the best way to put this?

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It's not black and white.

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And so it's approaching yourself with

compassion and kindness to say, okay,

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how is my memory being affected?

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How am I inattentive?

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What do I need to do to take

responsibility for my hyperactivity?

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How are my emotions with this?

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And then start going from there.

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And then having those

communications with your partner.

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Start shedding some

light on what's going on.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And I think getting some, I'm always about

the relatable examples because what I

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found when I was diagnosed was There was

lots of experti chats, there was lots of

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Google documents, but when it came down

to it, I was like, am I inattentive?

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I don't think I am, but I did start to

notice when I heard or when, I mean,

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even TikTok can be really powerful to see

someone go, I'm actually doing a hundred

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things and I'm feeling really stressed

and I'm feeling really productive,

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but actually what did I achieve today?

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And that was when I was

like, Oh, actually, sometimes

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I never get the job done.

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But I feel like I've killed

it, but actually I haven't.

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So yeah, that can be hard too.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So in my relationship, my beautiful

husband the other day, I'm quite

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a bit of a calming presence.

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Definitely.

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I think I'm a therapist.

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That's my, my genius zone.

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That's where I put all my interest

and focus into the rest of life.

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I've got some room for

improvement, but that's okay.

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Constantly growing, constantly expanding.

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Fanning constantly meditating, but he's

like, I just was like reflecting on you.

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How is she so calm and peaceful?

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Is it just that the other things that

the world, she just actually doesn't

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put attention and energy into it.

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She's just focused in her lane.

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Whereas my husband's like 50 things

at once excelling at those things

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somehow, but he's like, yeah, the calm.

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And then also just the different

approach and how that shows up.

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And he's learnt from me, like, he'll

start talking about football or

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things that I just have no interest

in and he'll just say this, I try

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really hard for about five minutes

and then this, this, nah, this fog.

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I'm out.

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And he's just learnt

and loved to let it go.

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He's let some of those dreams

die about me being a footy wife.

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Because he can just see how when

the disinterest hits it, it comes

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in strong and there's no, no battle

with that's winning without one.

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With those standards.

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Yeah, see, it's interesting because

I always wonder with, with my hubby.

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And actually with you as well,

because he comes across quite calm.

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He's definitely a bit of a rock and I

think you would, you would be similar.

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Right.

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And I say to him sometimes because I'm

just curious and I say to him, the list of

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stuff that you've got to do is monumental

because he's often procrastinating.

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Right.

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So it's not that things don't get added.

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He just doesn't actually move forward

on a lot of it, and he does it for such

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a long period of time, and he looks so

calm, and he comes home, he makes his big

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lunch, he sits down, then he lays down and

has a small kip sometimes, right, and I'm

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looking at his list, looking at him going,

I just don't understand how you could

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not worry about it, and, or, or go and do

all of this other stuff that's unrelated.

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Like, do you actually feel calm inside?

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Like, Or are you actually spinning inside?

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There can be calm before the storm.

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So sometimes the, the emotion I find

because we are quite emotionally aware

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and sensitive to experiences and quite

calm when we do have like a response,

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like anxiety, it hits us really hard and

it's almost like the uncharted territory.

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So they can be the avoidance or

just the presence outside of it.

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And then reality will hit.

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At a later time, and that's when

it can go to like a, to an eight

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or a nine physically in our body.

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And that's when you start to see the

other parts, the less calm parts.

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And it can be a bit of a shock when

someone seems to be so calm and

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such a rock for so much of the time.

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Does that relate to

you in your experience?

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Yeah, look, I always say to

Jez, like, especially if one

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of the kids hits their head or.

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There's what I deem an emergency and a

Jane emergency is not really an emergency.

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Like that's got a very, if I ring

him panicking, he doesn't know if

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that's I can't find my keys and I'm

hyperventilating because I've got

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to be at an appointment that doesn't

matter or whether someone's died.

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He has no idea and I'm probably the worst

person to have in a crisis, I reckon.

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So I always say to him, if I

see panic or anxiety on his

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face, I, it's sirens because he,

yeah, he does not show anything.

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And eventually he will crack

eventually, but then at that

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point, I do attempt to be really.

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I'm not going to be empathetic to him

because I'm like, shit, man, if he's going

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to crack, like it must be really bad.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Like I was saying, it can hit in a very

different way, which is then in those

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moments being a partner, it's great.

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Like my husband will always guide

me, all right, yep, you know all the

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things, but go outside now, get that

fresh air, he'll sometimes take me

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out and actually remind me of the

things that we were both already know.

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But when you're still triggered by

the emotion, the logical brain can

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sometimes switch off, depending

what it is, which is really great.

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Our next point is.

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What are the best ways to have beautiful

communication with your partner and

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almost have structure around that

and establish clear expectations?

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And then what have you radically accepted

as a partner of someone with ADD?

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And what have you had to

radically accept in yourself?

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Two sentences, two questions in one.

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Yeah, well, I think the acceptance

is, yeah, I mean, the compassion

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and acceptance can be really

hard when you're aggravated.

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I mean, as only a husband

and wife can aggravate you.

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But then also I do try and think, okay,

well, I know that he is particularly

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bad at doing any administration

tasks and I'm pretty good at it.

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So it's frustrating to watch him drown.

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Right.

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But I also don't want to do it all

for him because then I'm like, well,

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he's not really upskilling either.

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But if I flip over to things that I'm

awful at, that he has to help me out

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and I think about how I just drown doing

them, but it can be really difficult.

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Absolutely.

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But like you, Vic acknowledge, you have

both learned to radically accept those

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other parts of you that might've been

quite confusing or mislabeled previously,

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and because you're accepting them

now, you know how to work together and

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you're strategizing or you're coming

up with plans to manage them when

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they do come up and then avoid them

or better manage them in the future.

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Okay.

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So let's say we're

particularly frustrated.

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I'm trying to think of a situation

I'm frustrated with my husband

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about, it's just so many.

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What, what could I think of that

I could share on this podcast?

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Let's say for example, the back fence.

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So he's still in his, like, starting,

get starting, getting distracted.

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He's got to coordinate with a couple

of neighbors, get some quotes.

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It's difficult to communicate with him

about it because sometimes he says to me,

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you're looking at me like I'm an idiot.

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And probably I am because I'm so highly

frustrated that he can't just text a few

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different neighbors and get it sorted.

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But I also don't want to take the job

from him because if I take all the

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jobs, then I then get burnt out and I'm

resentful that he's not helping me, right?

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So where's, where's the balance?

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Because he's trying to help, but

he's not achieving the timeframes.

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What will be some key things to remember

when I'm communicating with him about

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something that I'm frustrated with?

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So there is an element of

letting go and trusting the

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process or trusting his process.

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And even though sometimes we can

see the answer right in front of

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us, it's very clear they're having

their experience because that's

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what they're meant to be having and

journeying through and receiving.

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At that time, and sometimes there is

a blessing or something does come out

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the right way from their experience.

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Well, the other 1 is just

having clear expectations or a

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norm where he can come to you.

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If he is feeling distressed, so it's

out of the priority list from 1 to 10.

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How important is it?

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That this takes flight and

we has a quicker outcome.

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If you take a helicopter view and

picture it all in front of you, you

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might say, well, end of the day,

it might take a bit longer than

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expected, less, but that's okay.

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He's doing what he has to do.

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It's maybe like a 4 out

of 10, 9 We sitting down.

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We having chats.

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You're not go walking out that door.

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I'm back in here.

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All right.

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I'm going to put my hat on.

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So it's, it's weighing up what the

priority list is, but then if you can

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really set some structure in place, so

it could be some couples is every day

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you have those five minute conversations

and you just be real authentic with

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what your experience for the day of

dinner, or without the kids not around.

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You might say, what have we done well,

these areas that we could improve on,

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or this is what I noticed happened.

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Is there a different way you think

you can go about it next time?

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So I've learned.

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Depending on the state of someone,

it's sometimes the best to give them

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advice because they're not in a place

or they're not ready to receive.

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So you know how earlier in the

podcast, sometimes we have a chat

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and something comes around six months

later, we all have that experience.

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It's like, oh yeah, there was

so much truth to what they said.

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I just couldn't see it

that way at the time.

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I wasn't ready to see

it that way at the time.

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So reversing it to, Oh, but what happened

today and seeing if there's a way that

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they can elicit a different outcome, what

do you think you could have done instead?

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Or is there something else you could

have done differently next time?

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That way that gets them thinking

about what's happened rather than

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you happen to be in the Travis.

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Yeah, because I think as women,

we generally, or even as moms

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as well, I think we often

take in a leadership position.

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Someone described to me once being

a mom as just effectively being in

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a leadership position constantly.

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Being a good leader is keeping all of

the team members on board, including your

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husband, because that is the strongest

way to conquer, right, the day with kids

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and competing interests and lots on.

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If you have a team member that's

not working with the team or

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doesn't feel included, they will

systematically destroy that team and

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they will make everything harder.

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So, Actually being a mom and being a

wife sometimes can be about leadership

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and becoming a good leader, which

is kind of funny because if moms go

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back into the workforce often, it's

like, well, what skills do you have?

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Like I'm like, they're usually a pretty

good communicator and they're a great

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leader and they're a great coordinator

and they've got some pretty good admin

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skills just to start project manager.

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Absolutely.

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Very emotionally intelligent as well.

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I think that makes sense.

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The key, key ways to communicate.

442

I was wondering, I have heard a

lot of people say that ADHD people

443

do not like being told what to do.

444

I have noticed with my husband,

if I directly tell him to fix that

445

fucking fence, he will not do it.

446

Do you think that's a real thing or not?

447

I mean, that's kind of the ego and

it's something that depending on

448

our journey, we can all experience.

449

There's something I think of it as the

role of the protector showing up in those

450

moments and the protector says, well,

this is part of me that might be rejected

451

or be a failure or not good enough.

452

And therefore I need to put up

this wall to keep myself safe.

453

Because if I was to feel, or if I was to

think for a second that I was a failure.

454

And what would that

mean for me as a person?

455

And it's a very, in a child,

it's a wounding response.

456

Someone who's done the work can

sit back and say, I'm still worthy.

457

I'm still enough.

458

Even, and I can actually take on the

feedback from this person and it's

459

not actually about me failing or not

impacting my self esteem or my identity,

460

regardless of going to make mistakes.

461

So that can be common with people that

have often felt not good enough in their

462

childhood or this needs to be perfect.

463

Well, there's a sense of failure.

464

And this needs to be approved to

gain people's approval as well.

465

Their protectors tend to be quite strong.

466

Yeah, so something that can really

help this is having conversations

467

firstly about what's going on.

468

And then just reframing the way

that you see feedback as, what would

469

it look like if you knew that you

were enough in those situations?

470

What would it look like for you to

know that it's okay to make mistakes

471

and you can still be well received and

still be loved and still be enough?

472

And the number one thing that's always

helped me is The people around me through

473

every conversation that I have, they

give me feedback and that's the number

474

one way that I can grow and learn.

475

Every person I encounter is some wisdom.

476

And so then that way the

defensive wall can come down.

477

It's like, okay, what's the lesson

I need to take this right now?

478

The sooner I learn the lesson, the

sooner that cycle will stop playing out.

479

And I keep moving forward.

480

And so having that at the forefront of

the awareness as well can help bring

481

some humility and bring those walls down

to better receive what you're saying.

482

My husband though would probably

say I'm still like quite defensive.

483

He calls me defensive Jess in saying

that, but I feel like outside of my

484

husband, I have a very open to feedback.

485

I feel like I've come a long way though.

486

I've come so long, such a long way.

487

Yeah.

488

I think the key ways to communicate

can be really because I feel like if

489

you have someone with ADHD on your

side, they're generally so capable.

490

They just have to be

in the right direction.

491

Like you just got to aim

them in the right way.

492

And they're, they are a lot better

than the communication can be

493

interesting back to the fence.

494

So I gave.

495

I said, my husband and I, we

had this whole thing around

496

what's important and what isn't.

497

So that's like for me, what I know is

actually trying to work on and what like

498

he's probably going to get to some point,

which just in my mind is like, okay, I

499

know he's probably not going to get there.

500

If I want him to do that, I'm probably

going to have to outsource that.

501

The fence has been one of those things.

502

And I said to him the other

day, look, Let's just, I don't

503

really look at the fence.

504

I don't really notice it.

505

It's actually you with the problem

with the fence more so than me.

506

I'm happy just to wait for you to do

it because we were talking about who

507

was going to do this fence thing.

508

Anyway, he goes to me, Oh, I feel like

if you knew more about the fence, you

509

probably would be worried about it.

510

I said, really?

511

And he goes, well, I just wanted

to let you know that, just go home.

512

I just wanted to let you know that

there is a American pit bull on one

513

side of the fence that is broken.

514

There's only a little bit left to

go and that pit bull will be loose.

515

And that people may go into our yard.

516

And I was like, Oh my God, cause

I'm actually quite scared of

517

dangerous, not dangerous, but breeds

that I don't really know well.

518

I don't, I've never really had a dog.

519

I don't know a lot about them anyway.

520

And I was like, Oh, that sounds

like something that's terrifying.

521

Like.

522

that we've got kids.

523

That's not a good idea.

524

Anyway, he's like, Oh, don't

worry because that dog is only

525

really aggressive to other dogs.

526

And there's these Labradors on

the other side of the fence.

527

It's going to go right in there.

528

Oh my God.

529

I am suddenly seeing this as

an emergency, but for him.

530

It is still, it is still not an emergency.

531

So at some point we are going to have

to tackle this fence and I'm there

532

going, I don't know how to communicate

much more calmly, but I'm going to

533

need that fixed in the next month.

534

Like that just has to happen.

535

But as soon as I go really direct, I

just noticed that he's like shut down.

536

I'm not going to do that.

537

Yeah, absolutely.

538

Well, if you are going to have

some structured communication or

539

in structured, it's letting him

know, look, I just need a timeframe.

540

Because what's going on right now is

creating a lot of anxiety for me with the

541

uncertainty and I feel really supported.

542

And protect it.

543

If I knew when this was going to be done,

and is there anything that I can do to

544

support you as you're handling this?

545

And I thank you so much for what

you're doing, but let me know if

546

there's things that I can do because

I really excel in these areas well,

547

and I can compliment you for coming

to China, find that middle ground.

548

It'd be helpful.

549

I feel like at the end of this, Jess, I'm

going to be like, can, can we get married?

550

Okay.

551

Join.

552

Join.

553

Okay.

554

So let's go to the next one,

which was really interesting

555

one, emotional intensity.

556

So I have really struggled with

this dating wise because I kind

557

of want to know what the outcome

is going to be immediately.

558

So I make immediate judgments,

not very good at like letting

559

go and seeing how it goes.

560

And oh, I don't know.

561

I'm just floating with the breeze.

562

How do you, with emotional

intensity, how does that play

563

out in long term relationships

and also Kind of like dating.

564

If it's unconscious, so you haven't

actually done work to explore the drivers

565

and the why, it can be self sabotaging

and a really big barrier to connection.

566

The first step is starting to, I

guess, build that self connection

567

and getting familiar with why is

there so much emotional intensity?

568

What are the beliefs that are

driving and creating that for me?

569

And then how can I best support

myself and guide my heart?

570

Take care of this dynamic.

571

So there's that radical acceptance.

572

So this is what the pattern is.

573

What do I have to take that

radical responsibility for to

574

make sure we're all okay in this?

575

Because it can be an emotional

rollercoaster when you're

576

experiencing emotions that

significantly and that strong.

577

And if you already know that when

you're in an emotional state, you're

578

not going to be thinking logically.

579

All those plans that you made might

be a little rough or unaccessible.

580

It's even more important to go in primed

and prepared, prepared, consciously, and

581

then you can also do some visualization

work around that as well to support

582

you for those situations that arise.

583

Now, if they're, you know, one of those

spontaneous situations that we all have.

584

If you still even have like a basic

framework of going outside, outside,

585

grounding, jumping on the grass, doing

start jumps, getting the adrenaline out of

586

your body because the motion stored in the

physical body, not so much the thought.

587

So for the first few minutes,

your best response would be to get

588

outside and quickly, my husband's

always like, get outside and shake.

589

And I'm like, yes, you're right.

590

Like shaking like a weirdo in my

backyard and then for at least like

591

three to five minutes and then I'm

like, oh, okay, blow my breath.

592

I might do some breath

work, couple of rounds.

593

Now I can start exploring the situation

and how it was feeling more clearly.

594

There's a point though when

someone's like, How are you feeling?

595

When you're in the peak of

emotional intensity, you're

596

like, Just leave me alone!

597

Because your body is actually

not in the place to receive.

598

Just needs to go through the physical

experience and so release or Just

599

give that adrenaline and cortisol a

bit of direction so you can calm your

600

body and then be present and focused.

601

Does that help?

602

Does that make sense?

603

Yeah, it does.

604

It's funny because when it's like when you

need to do that and you should do that,

605

you don't want to be told to do that.

606

That's my experience.

607

So you might have people say to

me, do you want to go for a walk?

608

Right?

609

I'm like, I don't want to go for a walk.

610

I don't need to go for a walk.

611

And it's like, actually,

he's totally right.

612

But in that moment, I'm

like, what do you mean?

613

There's nothing wrong with me.

614

I don't But you were right, I

think that's what we should do.

615

It's hard sometimes in the

moment to recognize that.

616

Yeah.

617

It's, yeah, it's, it's interesting

one because sometimes I think there's

618

so much going on in our brains.

619

It's, it's difficult to then receive a

hug or like more sensory, like you're

620

overloaded and then someone will come in

to hug you and you're like, fuck off mate.

621

He's generally my, cause I'm

like, I don't want to be targed.

622

I don't want any, I just need

actually some more quiet time,

623

but it's such a rude thing.

624

That's why I'm making a plan.

625

Yeah.

626

It can become a crosscut route.

627

Yeah, absolutely.

628

That's why having these conversations

in advance with your best friend.

629

So with my husband and I,

that's just an agreement.

630

I'll see him stressing out the desk.

631

Okay, what do you need from me right now?

632

I can see right now that

you're not doing that great.

633

Do you need to go outside?

634

What's best for you to

start regulating yourself?

635

And we've both learned to

respond to that in the moment.

636

Yeah, because we know we're going

to feel so much better and there's

637

no, again, no defensiveness.

638

There's no, like, I'm

telling you what to do.

639

It's like, we both know we can

struggle from time to time.

640

And we both know that's going to be

a thing to support us in the moment.

641

And we just see that direction.

642

So we take it straight away.

643

I've read somewhere about dating and

ADHD that Often people with ADHD can

644

jump to the conclusion real quick, like,

you know how it's about the journey and

645

sometimes dating is about learning about

yourself and it's about experiences and

646

joy and having a good time, let's say.

647

Sometimes that can be like shaded over

by the emotional intensity of like over

648

texting, texting too many times, not

being out of weight, being consumed.

649

And I suppose that rejection

sensitivity as well.

650

I very badly did not succeed in dating.

651

And I think there was

ADHD was probably why.

652

Um, obviously I'm married now, but I

was lucky to jag my hubby when he was

653

looking for a long term relationship.

654

So I've managed to run into him at

a time that he was available and

655

interested in something long term, which

had been on my radar for a long time.

656

And possibly I wasn't ready,

but we managed to connect with

657

the right timing, which was

probably really important because.

658

I, my intensity was matched by somebody

who was like, yeah, well, I'm, I

659

mean, yeah, I'm pretty keen for that.

660

Fine.

661

He was, he's had no problems, but if

that intensity is, is not matched by,

662

and he's also a little bit older, so he

was probably a little bit more mature

663

where the, you know, I've probably

been dating people that were more.

664

Like the same age as me, who were in

a totally different place, how, what

665

are some ways to kind of navigate that?

666

Yeah.

667

So again, noticing and recognizing

your pattern, the first thing

668

to do is acknowledge and accept

that this is my pattern when I,

669

I do feel things really strongly.

670

And there's also that dopamine release

that's probably going to hit me even

671

stronger, which is going to lead to

more of the obsessive behaviors, which

672

will then self sabotage or create

connect or come across as desperation,

673

which isn't going to serve me.

674

Moving forward.

675

So what I need to start

doing is feeding the wound.

676

The opposite of rejection is that

radical self acceptance and self love.

677

So what practically cannot be doing

not just behaviorally taking actions

678

and doing my hair, nails or whatever

by feeding my soul with words of life.

679

And like, I am valued.

680

I am accepted to doing meditations

around that and doing the conscious

681

work of like, speaking it out loud and

taking actions in line with the higher

682

value version of you that you truly

are at your core beyond the wounding.

683

And then the next step

is training presence.

684

So your pattern is the over texting or the

obsessive thought response by knowing the

685

thoughts that would be showing up for you.

686

It'd be having a key replacement thought

that you could be meditating on during

687

that time and things that will really

stroke me, maybe in healthy ways.

688

They're going to get you feeling

really good about yourself.

689

And then it's also having some

rules that you could put in place.

690

For example, I don't reply for

two days and you're just going

691

to set some really clear rules.

692

I'm not going to wait.

693

I'm gonna wait for a day.

694

Things that you can hold yourself

to, knowing your pattern.

695

So it's always coming back to, is

this leading me towards my goal of

696

connection or is it leading me towards

disconnection or self sabotage?

697

So if you have that little scale going

on, is the overtexting coming across

698

and leading me towards connection?

699

If it's not, okay, what's my

radical responsibility step?

700

What's going to help me nurture that?

701

Maybe like a date, something like that.

702

Yeah, setting up some structure.

703

That actually, yeah, I feel like I

should have had that conversation

704

with you when I was dating.

705

I was terrible at it.

706

But you know what though, as we

do with The Rabbit Hole, Gigi, my

707

daughter, is obsessed with love

and who does she get it from?

708

Me.

709

I love romance novels, right?

710

It's, I just love them.

711

And we were watching, we had a girl's

night, Saturday night, which involves

712

her and I watching High School

Musical, which she loves, right?

713

And it means Zac Efron.

714

I mean, I like her, I like her taste.

715

Like that's, that makes sense to me.

716

So we make popcorn, we sit on the

couch, we watch high school musical.

717

And I noticed we're watching number two

and Zac Efron was kind of like, he, he

718

didn't, he wanted to be with Gabriela,

the lead, right, the one that he ends up

719

with, but he got a bit like distracted

by this other blonde girl who was kind

720

of like using her parents money and

status to kind of like, he could have

721

got a college scholarship or something.

722

And he got a bit distracted.

723

Kept making dates with her

and then not turning up.

724

And it was really interesting because the

way that that played out in the movie was

725

Gabriella, the lead, who was beautiful

in her own right and lovely, right.

726

And sweet and gorgeous.

727

She just went about her life.

728

You didn't see her texting him,

worrying about him, whinging

729

about him, obsessing about him.

730

Every time he turned up, she was

just having a good time with her

731

friends and he was just watching

her like, I wish I could do that,

732

but I'm off on this other journey.

733

And in the end, they ended up together.

734

But I just thought it was really

interesting the way that the newer movies.

735

Play out with the woman, not sitting

back and not obsessing and not

736

crying about the other blonde girl.

737

She just went, had a good time with her

friends, which I thought was awesome.

738

That's amazing because the, when we watch

TV, often a darkened, darkened room, those

739

messages go straight into us subconscious.

740

So reflecting back on our upbringing,

all the stories we saw, there was.

741

A lot of probably unhelpful messages

that were received unconsciously and

742

locked in the filing cabinet in our

minds, and we've never corrected them.

743

They'll be like, why is it not

going this way that I've been

744

told it would go my entire life?

745

Because since the age of five, I was

seeing things on TV and my mind told

746

me that was the way it should be.

747

A different level of that.

748

So I love that there now is a really

beautiful, healthy way of communicating

749

how a relationship can look.

750

You can be independent, self loving,

live a rich life and trust and

751

know that the right person will be

attracted to you at the right time

752

as you're doing your own thing.

753

It's not about you failing or not

being good enough if they don't respond

754

or react in the way that you hope.

755

It's just a divine timing situation.

756

So I think that's great.

757

It's being role model.

758

Yeah.

759

I was really impressed too because some

of those love stories, as you said,

760

when we were growing up, it's like,

I look back and I'm thinking that's

761

actually really unhealthy messaging.

762

So thanks for that movies.

763

But anyway.

764

Okay.

765

So time management and practice.

766

And being flexible to go along with it.

767

That is a bit of an art form just

in itself for anyone with ADHD.

768

What are your kind of thought

patterns around that one?

769

So knowing how you both as a couple,

how you, you excel, what your

770

strengths are, what is the routine

that you can put in place that can

771

still have some level of flexibility?

772

Don't want to get to the point

of being so rigid with it because

773

it's an element of control, trying

to keep everything on top of it.

774

And then the situation

you did earlier with Jez.

775

All of a sudden, he's got a weekend

planned, you've planned something,

776

there's expectation, and then reality

is not met, and you're left with

777

frustration, which is a natural emotional

response for something not going the

778

way that you thought it would go, right?

779

So we want to have some flexibility, but

a bit of a general routine or structure,

780

especially if you've got kids thrown

in as well, so you both know what's

781

going along, and you're both choosing

that in a way that works for you two.

782

What have you found works so far?

783

Well, you know what?

784

I'm pretty good on the

visual calendar now.

785

So I'm one of those mums that

were told by an OT to do some

786

things that I now actually do for

myself and my husband as well.

787

Which I think the visual

calendars really work.

788

I do find having everything on

your phone in really small letters

789

and then you can miss things.

790

It stresses me out and

I'm constantly on it.

791

I think you in the anxiety episode that

we did have gotten me more on paper.

792

So actually that's been

life changing for me.

793

We had a conversation if you

haven't heard it, go back and

794

listen to it on anxiety and ADHD.

795

But we had a conversation around

my head being so hyperactive.

796

That then I would want to

write it down in my phone.

797

So I'd write, write down all

the things in my phone because

798

then I'd be able to relax.

799

Otherwise it goes around

and around and around.

800

But what I would do is I'd open a

can of worms by opening my phone.

801

I'd then have messages.

802

I'd then have notifications and didn't

matter how much I tried, you would

803

accident and get down a rabbit hole.

804

And this isn't social media.

805

This is just like pure work.

806

I just start going into work mode.

807

And Jess was talking about getting a

memo pad or getting some little paper.

808

And now I try and really reduce

what's in my phone to a paper

809

that I leave like in a desk.

810

So I'm actually a desk working.

811

I can look at it, but I'm not looking at

it all day, which is what I was doing.

812

So for me, I think the

visual calendar on the wall.

813

And having things out of my phone and

on paper in a spot that I actually work

814

because if I'm at the park with my kids

and I've got my to do list open and then

815

Jez starts talking to me about how he's

feeling and what his plans are, it's

816

very difficult for me to concentrate

on that because I've just gone into

817

productivity mode where I'm then thinking

about what I can achieve on my list.

818

whilst being at the park,

which is not very good wifing.

819

So I suppose for time management in

practice, that for me has helped because

820

I need to unwind a little bit more.

821

But it can be frustrating to

watch someone else that's probably

822

maybe not their skill set.

823

Because you're trying to get them to wind

up, but I also don't want to blow him

824

up with anxiety, but I'm also like, I'm

super anxious and I'm super stressed.

825

Why aren't you?

826

Because I'm almost jealous and

envious that, that they, they

827

looking like they're pretty chill.

828

They're on the couch.

829

And I'm in a spin over here.

830

So you're kind of like, can we

balance each other out somewhere?

831

Because it's, we're not

meeting in the middle.

832

Yeah, absolutely.

833

There's that middle point of my

emotions and my responsibility,

834

I'm the one creating them

with my thoughts and beliefs.

835

Therefore, what do I have

to do in this situation?

836

What is self created?

837

And maybe we also know when we're driven

by emotion, all of a sudden we tunnel

838

vision in on our wounding, all the things

that we've done wrong by, and it's like

839

the puzzles laid out and we've turned

over one piece or maybe like five pieces.

840

And there's a lot.

841

But on the other hand, if there is

something that your husband, your

842

partner isn't doing, they're not

bringing their weight to, then that's the

843

invitation to have those conversations.

844

And again, having some structure every

day around like, if you're super busy

845

and you got all these responsibilities

going on, there's no time to have

846

those conversations with your partner.

847

It could be every day 10 minutes, we

just sit down and have some honest

848

communication with how the day went,

talk about the really good things, the

849

things that we admire, talk about the

things that maybe we struggled with,

850

not attacking, just being present.

851

Those are the acts of listening,

reflecting back to what your experiences

852

both were, and then finishing up with

an action step or a problem solving

853

step of, okay, what do we have to do

moving forward so that we're not playing

854

the cycle out over and over again?

855

How can we both take that

responsibility for our relationship

856

to keep moving forward?

857

But I do find, again, the flexibility is

a big key piece, along with forgiveness.

858

There's a lot of forgiveness pieces going

on as well, because those are expectations

859

that are always not being met, and they

have to be moved and shifted around.

860

Yeah, and I think that expectations

can be a real problem as well.

861

I know I have really high expectations

of myself and also others around me,

862

and that actually can be difficult for

the other person who's just, they're

863

not meeting them, or I'm at them, or

I'm feeling that they're not meeting

864

them because they're where, why does it

matter and whose expectations are they?

865

And that's just a reflection

of my childhood and my dad's.

866

High and unrealistic expectations

that he held that I never met.

867

So I also wanna be really careful, and

I've acknowledged that I do do that.

868

And then you've got someone

who's constantly not meeting

869

expectations and then it's sad.

870

It's awful for them.

871

Sorry, you go, Jess.

872

Yeah.

873

When I found there's a beautiful lady,

Katie, and I'll remember her last name in

874

a second, but she has these four questions

that you can use to explore your beliefs.

875

Very simple.

876

And I always come back to them.

877

Sometimes I even just use one Katie Byron.

878

Yeah.

879

Beautiful.

880

So she says, the first thing is

once you're aware of what's going

881

on, you ask yourself, is this true?

882

So if the belief is my partner

should be helping me with dinner,

883

should word already like flag

for self Chinese language.

884

Like I wish I prefer, and he's

just being lazy right now.

885

Is it true?

886

Is it true that they should

be helping you for dinner?

887

Maybe, but maybe you haven't

had that discussion before.

888

Maybe it's just something that

you're projecting out there.

889

And then you can ask again,

like, is this really true?

890

Is it an expectation that you're

just creating or are they creating?

891

When I have this thought or this

belief, how does it make me feel?

892

And how do I act?

893

Because straight away you're doing

some mild, mild CBT on yourself.

894

And you start bringing

awareness to your own pattern.

895

I love this one.

896

Who would I be without the thought?

897

So say girls on the couch, you're in

the kitchen and those thoughts are

898

playing out, but if they're in that

moment, they didn't exist and you just

899

had a clear mind, how would you respond

physically, emotionally and mentally?

900

You probably would just cut

your carrots without stress.

901

You just would be there,

like, doing the activity.

902

But it's the thought that Jez should be

helping me that's creating the distress,

903

which is then creating the disconnection.

904

And the last one is, like, what's

the opposite of this thought?

905

So Jez should be helping me.

906

The opposite would be I

should be helping, right?

907

So what does it look like?

908

What do I have to do to help me then?

909

Do I have to get extra support?

910

And is it the right time

for me to be doing this?

911

Have a conversation and love knowing that

he's doing what he needs to right now.

912

So they're four simple questions.

913

Keith's got quite a few

YouTubes on them as well.

914

So you can see some real

life role play scenarios.

915

Also got a book, but yeah,

they've, they've really helped me.

916

And sometimes it's just the question

of who am I without the thought or.

917

What's the opposite of this thought,

especially when I find myself being

918

like, Joel should be doing this,

or you should be straight away, I'm

919

like, the reverse is I should be.

920

And that takes responsibility back

to you and puts you in the driver's

921

seat with what you're going to take,

what action you're going to take next.

922

Yeah, absolutely.

923

I love that.

924

And I suppose psychologist or

counselor, relationship expert,

925

whoever you want to see, maybe I

don't help you unpack some of this.

926

It's, if it's difficult to just

start out of nowhere, like let's say

927

you've been together for 10 years,

you listen to this podcast, you're

928

like, well, I don't even know how to

begin having that conversation with my

929

partner because he might not be ready.

930

He might think it's weird.

931

We've never done that before.

932

And I think sometimes that

professional help can help,

933

especially in the beginning.

934

Yeah, absolutely.

935

Starting to get you familiar with your

patterns, the unconscious things that

936

you have, what's playing out on your

end that you can start shifting and

937

changing and you being a team as well.

938

So you're both in this together.

939

Yeah.

940

If it's hard to have those conversations

without some support there.

941

Yeah, absolutely, and I think as well,

depending on who you're with, if you're

942

with somebody who generally has quite

good intentions and they really love

943

you, I think sometimes it's easy to

take the excuse that we can't control.

944

or they're doing this to me, but I found,

and this might just be me that if I change

945

my behavior first, they will often change

their behavior without a conversation.

946

So we actually think have, and this

might be controversial, have more power

947

or control than what we think we have.

948

Because often if we wait for them

first, often I find if I change

949

myself, they will then change too.

950

So that can be really powerful.

951

Even if your partner's not on board.

952

To self discover and then

start to make changes.

953

Absolutely.

954

And one of a man's basic

needs is for admiration.

955

And so when we're constantly in this

place of trying to correct them or

956

give them guidance and feedback, that's

another reason their defender slash

957

protector comes in full speed ahead

because there's an imbalance there and

958

they're not, they're feeling they don't

have your respect and your admiration.

959

So if you can always come back to

really speaking life and encouragement

960

over them when you do give feedback

or you do have those moments.

961

They're going to be better received.

962

Always love sandwich them well.

963

Yeah.

964

I mean, everyone likes a shit

sandwich or a love sandwich.

965

Everyone responds better that, and even

when you know that you're getting one,

966

you still appreciate the effort, right?

967

Like if someone's telling me feedback

and I know that they're going in nice

968

and they're about to come in hard in

the middle and then finish with, I

969

still, I know that it's kind of that.

970

But I'm also like, it does take the

blow out, even if you know what it is.

971

Yeah.

972

But I would even go a step further

to say that it's actually you being

973

intentional to see the good in a

situation where we could be primed

974

to only see the bad, perceived bad.

975

Because when we're in the middle of

a wound, often we're seeing, or me,

976

woe is me, I'm being mistreated.

977

It should have happened differently.

978

It's taking, it's allowing

yourself to train your mind to

979

see the other side of that coin.

980

You get to create two heads

instead of just one, right?

981

Two sides of that coin.

982

And it's a fantastic exercise to have

to keep you balanced in a relationship.

983

Yeah, absolutely.

984

And I think if you're looking

for positivity, you'll find it.

985

If you're looking for

negativity, you'll find it.

986

And it's easy to wake up in the morning.

987

We've got PMS, we've been up all night,

we've really tired and feeling burnt out.

988

And then you just look

around and you just see.

989

Things that are not happening the way

you, it should be, which actually kind of

990

ruins your day more than anyone else's.

991

Yeah, absolutely.

992

But I also want to add the

importance of validating yourself.

993

I find a lot of beautiful mothers

that are juggling 50 things and then

994

sometimes the husband's protectors

come in for probably good reason,

995

but he's not ready to receive.

996

It can make you feel maybe You gaslight

yourself, or you think I should be able

997

to do this, or you don't fully acknowledge

that it is really hard, or this didn't

998

go the way, and you're disappointed, or

you're frustrated, and that's okay, which

999

is why the I statements are so important.

You're validating your emotional state.

You're not attacking.

You're just saying, this

is what came up for me.

What can we do moving forward?

Validation is so important

for health and well being.

We don't want to sit breath,

we want to work knowledge.

Yeah, it's always that question of

whether you're being reasonable or not.

Because when you have such

competing demands, everyone's

fatigued, everyone's exhausted.

Doesn't feel like many, anyone

has got to do anything that

they want to do for a long time.

And then, you're kind of like, Am I

blowing up over this empty dishwasher or

full dishwasher because it's really an

issue or is it just that I'm exhausted

and I'm just projecting shit like it's

actually really hard to know at times

what's real and what's what's suck

it up and what's actually something

that you should address for me.

I have trouble knowing because.

You're just so tired and you're like,

is this the straw that breaks me or is

this me being unrealistic and actually

he's struggling as much as I am because

it's having a really hard weekend.

Absolutely.

But it's good that you're giving

yourself a chance to take a step

back and see, okay, big picture, that

helicopter view again, what are the

missing pieces if I was looking upwards?

And down in my situation,

what's going on with Jess?

What's been going on with the kids today?

How's my general energy?

How's happening with work or school?

All these things are coming together.

And if that's the case, what do I have

to do is that honoring and building self

care and what kind of agreement around

self care my partner and I have along

with having these honest conversations.

There was, I think Byron Katie, no,

there might be another lady, sorry.

She talks about the shame researcher,

that will come to my mind shortly.

Thank you.

Saved me.

Yes.

I was like, there's so many.

She was talking about, there's just,

with her and her husband, there's

this expectation and there's just

knowing that you're probably going

to be depleted by the end of the day.

So they actually quantify

it by percentages.

She'll say, babe, I'm feeling

60 percent today and he'll

be like, Oh, I'm feeling 40%.

Okay.

So how can we both, what can I bring

based on my 16, you're on your 40, but

sometimes actually giving it a label

or a number can help rather than, Oh,

I'm depleted, but you must be fine.

You haven't done the work that I've had.

It's kind of like, you don't want to be

competing, which is such a area to get

into the new competing against who's.

Who's what?

Who's more tired?

Who?

You don't have any right to feel

like that because I've done this.

Once you get there, oh yeah, and you're

not in a good spot, never comes, there's

no winners from that conversation.

But if someone's like, I'm 20 and your

partner's like, well, I'm 20 as well.

Okay.

What do we both have to do then?

Because we're feeling 20 and you're both

recognizing you're on the same page.

So you both need support and it might

be pulling things right back or what

can we both do to support each other?

But if someone's like 80, they

might need to take a seat on

the couch, I'll make dinner.

I'm feeling pretty good tonight and

it will come around the other way

as well in a healthy relationship.

Yeah.

And that's where I think

giving does change things.

So if kind of you're listening and you're

thinking, Oh, I would always be 50 and

he would just say 10 and I would have to

do everything and he wouldn't, I reckon

there'd be some people in this podcast

that that's what they would go into.

It's interesting because I really

believe in a healthy relationship.

As you pointed out, we're talking

about healthy relationships.

If you give, you then will receive.

Human nature is, is generally that way.

It's particularly if you're with

someone who actually really loves

you and they're willing to put in.

I'm hoping most people

are in that relationship.

Then that might start that way.

You might say you're 50 percent

every time and he might say 10%, but

maybe that only happens three times.

And then on the third,

fourth time, he goes.

Oh, and you say, I'm 40, I'm

30, and he might go, Oh, I'm 42.

I'll help you.

Because the way to break it, I think is

to start to, to give and give it a go.

Because if we have this thing about, well,

I'm always going to have to do everything.

Well, that's the story

you're telling yourself.

That's probably what's going to happen.

Absolutely.

And at that point, if it was

being maintained for quite a

bit of time, you might want to

look at a situational change.

Why is he at a 10 continually?

Is, does he need a work change?

Because that's not healthy and not

normal and that all creates stress,

not just for him, but for the dynamic

and it's just for long term for him.