Episode 18 – Neurodiversity and Eating Disorders: Uncovering the Hidden Relationship With Lindsay Keating

Jane McFadden
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Welcome to the ADHD Mums podcast, a safe place for everyday Australian mums to discuss their struggles with ADHD, motherhood and life. Hello and welcome to ADHD Mums. Today we have one of those episodes that I’ve been wanting to do for a long time, however, was trying to find the perfect person to do it. And I rang Lindsay Keating about something else unrelated and then we ended up getting onto eating disorders. So welcome to you, Lindsay.

Lindsay Keating
Oh, thank you. It’s so nice to be asked to come on and speak about this topic. That’s very close to my heart. So thank you.

Jane McFadden
Lindsay and I did one of those like five, 10 minute conversations on the phone that was 100% like on the accelerator. Like basically I picked up and I was like, I’m sorry, I think I might be autistic. I’m a very straight shooter. I’m very blunt. Let me just take off. And Lindsay just like met me exactly at the same intensity. And then at some point we got onto eating disorders and decided to do this episode.

If you haven’t heard of Lindsay Keating, I’m just going to give you a quick overview so people know who she is. So Lindsay is of course, number one, a mum to Summer who is autistic with ADHD. Lindsay left her corporate life behind six months ago to deep dive into all things autism and ADHD. She’s out to make the world a better place for her daughter. Hats off to you.

I think that’s why we connected so hard on that, Lindsay. That’s one of the big reasons I do this podcast. Off the back of Summer’s diagnosis, Lindsay discovered that she also has ADHD. Love the Pandora’s box. And this has helped make sense of several challenges she has had, including a battle with anorexia from now, which she’s fully recovered. Lindsay recently launched Nature Moves, which is an NDIS provider helping autistic kids to develop friendships, confidence, and independence through camping during school holidays.

You don’t need to write it down. I’m going to put everything in the episode notes. Lindsay is also launching Spectrum Sports, which is an after-school sports program for kids on the autism spectrum. She also has a podcast, Positive Action Autism ADHD Podcast, where a Facebook group asks questions and Lindsay interviews experts on autism. She’s also started free online support groups for parents of neurodivergent children.

Now, can we all just be aware that if Lindsay didn’t say she had ADHD, I’d be ready to diagnose her just on that bio, because that is a lot of things all at once.

Lindsay Keating
Yeah, it is a lot, but it’s all good stuff, right?

Jane McFadden
Oh, it is. And you’re clearly passionate, which I love. And obviously I say diagnosed, just quick caveat there. Obviously I meant that in fun. So let’s kick off Lindsay. We could go anywhere with this, but what I really wanted to talk to Lindsay about was her experience with eating disorders and neurodivergence and or ADHD. We do know that there’s a really big link between autism and eating disorders as well. So we’ll talk about ADHD in this podcast. I’m just very aware there’s probably going to be more autistic people with disorders than ADHD statistically.

Do you have anything to add Lindsay?

Lindsay Keating
Well, I’ll just explain to you a little bit about how it was all discovered from my side. So yes, I was severely anorexic from the time I was 17 and it sort of came and went throughout the next sort of 20 years until I decided that I wanted to have a child and I knew that I needed to get rid it once and for all and to get my body right. So that was sort of a very long journey of battling with anorexia in some degree or another.

And so I did end up getting the help that I needed and I got support to become pregnant. So then when my daughter was born around about the three month mark, we started to notice some developmental delays and she wasn’t sitting up. She wasn’t rolling over. So one of the very first things that the pediatrician did was he referred us to a pediatric physiotherapist and the pediatric physio came around and me and my ex-husband and my daughter were sitting around in a circle and she took one look at my daughter and said, oh, she has low muscle tone. And then she looked at me and she said, but so do you.

And I was like, what? Because at the time I was a spin instructor, I was super fit. And she’s like, oh no, you know, I can just tell the way that you’re sitting, your spine’s not, you know, it’s not as straight and your posture is just a little bit floppy. And I was like, oh, okay. And so we just wrote off low muscle tone as hereditary.

Lindsay Keating
And then the next thing came along and that was my daughter wasn’t eating. So she refused solids, she refused bottles, she refused everything. She was exclusively breastfed for 15 months. And my mum says, oh, so were you until you were 17 months old. And we were like, oh, okay. So we, again, wrote that one off to hereditary and all the pediatricians, all the speeches and OTs and all the therapists that we were seeing said she has global developmental delay, but it’s definitely not autism.

We heard definitely not autism for about five years. And then when my daughter was five and a half, we walked into the pediatrician — that was about her third appointment at the one pediatrician. And when we got into her office, she basically took another look at my daughter and said, it’s definitely autism, no formal testing or anything. It was that obvious.

And so I always thought to myself, wow, so many people got that so wrong for such a long time, considering that she was in and out of therapy, in and out of pediatrician appointments very, very regularly for about her first five years. And, you know, part of it is it was so much of it was written off to hereditary. And another part was she was very social. And so then I started to look into the female presentation of autism. And because I’ve heard that females present differently to males, and maybe that was why she was diagnosed so late.

And one of the things that I discovered is that eating disorders are quite common in autistic people. And I thought, oh my gosh, I need to go and talk to somebody. Am I autistic? Because you look at all the hereditary stuff and then eating disorder. And I just thought to myself, I want to find out what’s going on here. And so I went in, I saw a psych and he threw a whole series of questions. He said, you definitely have some autistic traits, but you’re screaming ADHD.

And I was like, can you talk me through that? Because I was, I was a good kid. I did well in school. I was social. I followed all the rules. I, you know, I wasn’t your typical… when you think about ADHD, you often think about the kids who are running around crazy, the kids who, you know, don’t do well in school, the kids that are bouncing off the walls. And that just wasn’t me.

And so I was, it was really hard for me to understand that at the beginning. But when he started talking to me about, the hyper-focus and the risk-taking behavior and the need for like my attraction to taking on challenges and the dopamine hits that you get from those things. That’s when I was like, okay, yes, that’ll make sense now. And so, yeah, so that’s how I discovered that I have ADHD and the link and how that sort of creates a perfect storm for somebody who sort of goes down towards an eating disorder. In my experience, it was anorexia. So yeah, I’m sure we’ll get into more of that, but that’s just a little background that I thought would help to explain how I came to understand that I have ADHD.

Jane McFadden
I just love this. I love interviewing people. Hey, people are always like, thank you so much for the podcast, and that’s lovely, but I just get so much joy because I just find it so interesting to hear about people’s stories.

So that sounds like a huge experience. And you know what? It reminds me a lot of my daughter with your talking about all the different multiple appointments, hearing it’s not this, it’s not that. And then finally getting told, yes, it’s what you thought the whole time.

Lindsay Keating
I’m like, well, I didn’t know anything about autism because everybody kept saying it’s definitely not autism. I was like, okay, so I wasn’t even looking at autism. We just were kept being told, ah, just wait another two years, wait another two years. So no, unfortunately. And so, you know, there’s a lot of support out there for young kids, especially around some of the early interventions that are specifically supportive of autism. So we missed out on all of that, but anyway.

Jane McFadden
What has… one thing I’m burning to ask, and look, it’s probably an ADHD thing, because I totally understand it, but I think there’s such a strong social justice component to women, mothers who have children who are neurodivergent in any way, because I just feel such a strong need to change the world. And I know that I can, and I’m one person, but I want to try.

Is that the reason that you speak out about this so openly and you run your business? Like what drives you to do all of the things I read in your bio?

Lindsay Keating
So it’s a good question. Thanks for asking. So previously I was working in international freight, global logistics, and I, as people with ADHD do, I was burning myself out, literally working around the clock. And part of the challenge was that I really enjoyed it at the beginning and I loved the work. I loved the challenge. It was a new role. It was exciting.

And so of course I had no off switch, just like I have no off switch whenever I sort of go into that hyper-focus. And then what happens is I take it too far. And so I was really struggling with burnout. I was getting help and one of my homework assignments was to do a mind map of what my soul wants, basically.

And I looked at my daughter and I… all the things that I love to do, hiking and nature and camping and just all that activity, being outside, being in the sun, all that stuff. And so that’s when I… the next session, I walked back in and I said, I know what I need to be doing. And it was very shortly after that, I just couldn’t even, I couldn’t bear going into the office anymore. And so I left my corporate life and I, that’s how I started Nature Moves with the school holiday camps.

And then I, with the… so that’s sort of the basis of that. And also when I was in my corporate world, they sent me to do Outward Bound and Outward Bound is sort of like your personal, professional development for leaders of organizations basically. And that’s when I was like, wow, this is so amazing. This is exactly what I want to do.

And one of the guides on that, he was ADHD and we got talking about it. And he said, you know, there’s such a high percentage of people who work in outdoor rec who have ADHD. And it’s like, I get it because you’re out there, you’ve got all this natural stimulation. And so that was another thing. And there’s like all these little things made me think, this is what I need to be doing.

And a big part of it as well is trying to create avenues for neurodiverse people to access work that’s really good for their brains. So I thought if I can build business and then get, you know, people that want to work in that space, then they’ve got a business that they can work for. So that was sort of how that evolved and my passion grew for that side.

And then with Spectrum Sports, a couple of things, you know, it’s kind of like the perfect storm that comes in and you go and like all the lights start to turn green. And so one of the things that the psych said was the best thing that kids with ADHD can do is ride their bikes to school. And I, because I was a triathlete and a cyclist for so many years, I worked really hard to get my daughter to be able to ride her bike to school, which the physio still can’t believe that my daughter can ride a bike.

And so that was one thing where I’ve just always been really passionate about getting my daughter outside and trying to give her exposure to lots of those natural forms of stimulation and exercise. And then she had a physio appointment and we were charged $495 for one physio session. And he basically… it was an hour, but it was an intro. So, okay, fair enough.

It was $193.99 for the physio session, $193.99 for some recommendation report. And it was $90 for travel. I think I might’ve missed another $190 thing in there anyway. But it came to $495 and I just was like, this is ridiculous. And all we did, and I was helping to facilitate it — we did some tag, we did some throwing and catching, and that’s sort of what the physio was going to be all about. Having fun playing games and getting her to, you know, develop some of her strength and coordination through play.

And I thought, this is ridiculous that our kids are paying this, using this much amount of their funding, NDIS funding on physiotherapy when they can just be in an after-school sports skills program and do all that fun stuff and pay an absolute fraction of what they would have to pay for physio. So that was my real motivator to create Spectrum Sports. And yeah, I’m super excited because it’s launching. I’ve got my first session today. So when we… it’ll be this afternoon.

Jane McFadden
Congratulations. So many people have got feedback on the NDIS and we won’t get into it completely, but one thing I love about the NDIS is the fact that neurodivergent parents and really passionate people can create businesses where they can work flexibly and they can truly give back to the kids properly. Like you’re clearly very passionate about it and you clearly put your heart and soul into it.

And I think that’s really important to create those flexible working arrangements. There’s so many places and people, or services that I use with my kids where I just feel so great about paying that invoice, because I think we got so much out of that and they really got my kids, they got us and they made it easy. And I think I’m just so happy that that can happen because otherwise it’s just kind of like a corporate, we can’t fit sometimes it feels like, and we need those flexible arrangements at times.

Lindsay Keating
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. That’s what the Spectrum Sports is all about. It’s about creating an opportunity for kids to develop some of those skills that they would get through mainstream sports, but just having loads of flexibility and not having to sign up for an entire term or not having formal competition, because we know that that’s difficult for them.

And just trying to create an environment where they can get all those benefits that come from sport, also the relationships and the communication and even down to turn taking and that sort of thing that these kids need more exposure to.

Jane McFadden
Okay. So if we go back onto the eating disorder theme for a moment, or for hopefully a bit longer than a moment, how do you think your ADHD diagnosis, and you’ve mentioned that you’ve got some autistic traits, I’m sure you could go get an assessment, but whether you do, that’s up to you, I suppose. But how do you think the neurodivergence as a whole intersects or influences the development of an eating disorder?

Lindsay Keating
Yeah, it’s a good question. And there’s such a significant correlation. So I think it’s good for everybody to understand this. So what we know about neurodivergence is that we can become very hyper-focused. And we can tend not to have an off switch. And we can become quite obsessed when it comes to numbers. Those are some common traits, right?

And so when you think about an eating disorder, well, I can only speak on my own experience, right? So mine was anorexia. So that is all basically limiting the food that I would eat. And it was all around counting calories. And it was the constant calculation going on in my head. It was like, you know, just on repeat, how many calories, how many calories, how many calories.

And that is just one of the things that can happen with a neurodiverse brain, right? And I think that bringing those two things together, it can really create the perfect storm. Also, who you’re around and your environment. And what we know is that we can be quite good at taking on other people’s behaviors. And we see somebody do something, and we like it, or we like what their outcome is, or something like that, then it’s very easy for us to adopt that behavior.

And so, you know, with my mum, she was always health conscious, she was always on a diet, she was always talking about wanting to lose weight. And then I was dating a guy, and his sister was anorexic. And I went over to their house, and I got to see exactly how she prepared her food, exactly what she did, exactly what she ate. And so then I was able to very quickly and easily adopt those behaviors.

And so that’s part of it. And then another part is the challenge and the dopamine hit. And that’s the weighing myself every day, seeing the number go down, having a goal, having a challenge. And then it was like, all of a sudden, I lost a pound. And I was like, oh, amazing, I’ve lost a pound. And then I would go and I’d want to lose another pound. And I would.

And so every time I’d step on the scale, and the scale would go down, I was getting that dopamine hit. Until it became to a point where I hated my body, I was so thin, I would wear jumpers and sweatpants to school, I didn’t want anybody to see my body. And there was a couple things going on there with that. But I just couldn’t stop. Like I didn’t have the off switch.

And I think that dopamine hit was… it was almost like I couldn’t stop it. I couldn’t go back to a, you know, just like a maintenance. It was either going… if the scale was going down or nothing at all. That was pretty much how it was for me. Until I was basically forced to completely change my lifestyle and try to find a way there.

I was given the threat that if I lost one more pound, I’d have to go into the hospital. And I think that’s what sort of made me go, oh, okay. And then I just got really good at flying under the radar for a really, really, really long time.

Jane McFadden
So it’s such a powerful story because I always talk about how I’m either like out on a highway, 200 kilometers an hour, like in terms of the way I approach things, I’m either head on a hundred miles an hour, I’m going, I’m going hard or, you know, my foot’s on the brake and I’m crying. I don’t… I have never worked out a way to balance things correctly. And that’s kind of like what I’m hearing you say. You’re like, that is my intense focus now. And I don’t know how to go midway. Is that correct?

Lindsay Keating
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And another thing about it was it became very isolating. And I talk about, when I talk about the eating disorder, from my experience, I would say I felt like I had a devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other shoulder, and the devil wanted the eating disorder to carry on. The eating disorder was serving that devil.

And so it wanted me to be alone. If somebody tried to fix me, the devil would go, oh, you can’t be around that person anymore. And so I ended up being very isolated. Like I would eat my lunch in my car. When I was in high school, I’d go to the parking lot and eat my lunch in my car because I just did not want to be around anybody. I didn’t want anybody to see me eating. I didn’t… I literally just wanted to be by myself because then I could do exactly what I wanted to do.

And that’s another thing that I didn’t mention, is so much of an eating disorder is about control. And when we look at neurodivergent people, there is a big thing with the need for control. You look at defiance and so often defiance is because we’ve told somebody what to do. All of a sudden we give them two choices, they’re happy as Larry, they make a choice and they move on, but it’s just because there’s such that need for control.

And I’m fairly certain that that comes from the underlying anxiety. And so when we’re feeling a bit unsafe, we’re a bit anxious about things, the greater the need is for us to control our little world. And for teenagers in particular, one of the only things… there’s only a couple of things that we really have control of, and that’s what we eat and when we go to the toilet. And so, you know, being able to try to control that, I think is a big… that was a really big thing as well.

It took me a long time to understand that. And I think once I started to really understand that and grasp it, that was a big part of my journey on the recovery as well.

Jane McFadden
Oh, that’s a really great point. Do you think for children, if they’re in an uncontrollable environment, let’s say a school, let’s say they’ve transitioned from a primary school to a high school, that that could be a way to control their environment? Like what you’re saying, they have to get up, they have to go to school, they have to go on the bus, they have to do all of these things.

And you’re right, from their perspective, they may only feel in control of their food and their sleep. Do you think that’s what it is, like that it’s chaos around them and so they just create calm or control?

Lindsay Keating
That’s a part of it. I think so. And you know, one of the things for me was I was rejected from one of my ex-boyfriends. I wanted to get back together with him and he said no. And I couldn’t control that. I couldn’t make him say yes. And so that was another trigger for me where things were out of control. I wanted it to be a certain way and he said no. And so it made me go, okay, well, what can I control then? And that was another little trigger.

So with an eating disorder, there’s so many different things that can trigger it, because it never starts with, oh, I’m going to have an eating disorder. Nobody walks out and says that. It’s usually… they might be on a diet or they might want to do something and, you know, they might want to change the way that they look or something like that. And so they try it. They’re a little bit successful, get the dopamine hit and then off they go.

So that’s why I think that people with ADHD, where there’s not as much dopamine, that’s why I think that there is a higher correlation, because they get that — it feels good and that keeps them on that journey until it gets to where, you know, at the end of the day, it’s life or death.

Jane McFadden
Yeah, it’s not dissimilar to when I interviewed someone about… they had a really strong binge drinking slash alcohol problem. And you’re right. It wasn’t like they started drinking, ‘I’m going to become an alcoholic.’ It was a really slow build up. One wine a night, two, three, four. And then the next thing you knew, she didn’t actually know how she’d gotten there. But it was kind of a bit of a slippery slope.

What signs would you see in the lead up? Like, what kind of were you doing initially, maybe at 15, 16, before it kind of moved out that you think led up to it?

Lindsay Keating
Well, it’s a bit hard to say because there are so many different things, right? I mean, I was always very competitive in sport. And so there was always that competition side to me from a very young age, probably about 10 years old is when I started playing tennis tournaments. And, you know, you look at gymnasts and things like that, where that competition is just in them, right?

I think that’s… when a child has that inherently, you sort of think, okay, well, they could be a candidate for having an ED further down the track if for some reason something goes on in their life and it triggers them to go down that path, because it’s almost like they’ve got the workings for it, right? Same with an ADHD brain. An ADHD brain has the workings for it, because they can hyper-focus and that sort of thing.

So yeah, so there’s that side. Also being around people who are constantly on a diet, wanting to lose weight. I think that’s a really big one for all the mums out there. If you’ve got children, try really, really, really hard to keep all of that to yourself. You know, go in the bathroom when they’re not home and get it all out where nobody else can hear you. Because our children are listening to everything that we say.

When we say to ourselves, I’m such an idiot. Well, guess what? Our children are listening to that. How we speak to ourselves and how we treat ourselves, our children are listening. And it’s like, how would you feel if you heard your child say to themselves, I’m such an idiot? You’d want to go and wrap them in wool and say, no, you’re not, you’re amazing, you’re incredible.

So I think just to be really mindful of how we speak to ourselves, how we treat ourselves, that sort of thing. Because our children are watching. And especially if they’re neurodivergent, they probably have some capability of masking quite well and adopting the behaviors of people around them. So yeah, that’s a really big one.

Jane McFadden
I just wanted to mention that I love what you said about the way that we talk to ourselves. A couple of years ago, I noticed that my husband would like drop something, like he’d drop a cup or he’d knock something, as you do. And he would say to himself, I’m such an idiot. And he would say it to himself, but the kids were there, and he had no idea that he would berate himself after making a mistake.

And we always say to the kids, mistakes are opportunities for learning. Was it an accident? It doesn’t matter. It’s just a glass. It’s just a cup. I grew up… my parents were very, very, very good at that. We were never… if you had made a mistake or an accident, we were never told off.

And I just got, I’ve looked at the way I see the world as an adult, and I could fully appreciate how important that was. And anyway, but then he would say to the kids, oh, it’s okay, don’t worry about the cup, or whatever it is. Because I talked to him about it, but he didn’t realize that what he was saying and doing to himself was so much more powerful.

And I said to him, but you can’t just say, that’s okay, mate, don’t worry about it, it’s just a cup, but then you do it, and then you just like beat yourself verbally that everybody can hear. Because it’s not about what we tell them. It’s about the way that we treat ourselves. That’s more powerful.

So you’re right. If we’re saying to our daughter, you look beautiful, but then we’re putting on six outfits and going, I look awful, I look ugly, I need to lose weight, I don’t look right. That’s so much more powerful than us telling them they look nice. Do you know what I mean?

Lindsay Keating
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I saw a thing the other day where, you know, it was something where they were trying to get their child to read because the child just wanted to be on the device. And it’s like, well, when the child sees the parent on the device all the time, they’re just going to think that that’s normal. They’re going to want to be on the device.

If us parents sat around the house reading all the time, well, the child would probably be a lot more likely to be reading as well and not be on the device. So I think it’s really important that we look at our own behavior often when we are trying to make changes or support our children with their positive behaviors.

Jane McFadden
Makes sense. That makes complete sense. I was wondering with eating disorders, sometimes I hear parents, professionals, people minimize eating disorders and say something like they’re just looking for attention, they’re just crying out for help, it’s just an attention-seeking thing, just ignore it.

I was just wondering if you think sometimes an eating disorder is like, let’s say, a depressed, anxious child that’s crying out for attention. They’re losing weight. Do you think that’s a real thing? Or do you think it’s actually the lead up to an eating disorder that needs to be taken more seriously?

Lindsay Keating
Every person is different and every person’s experience with an eating disorder is different. But I don’t think that I would write off any signs as trying to find attention. If they want attention, well, guess what? They probably want attention. If they’re losing weight and you’re just saying, oh, they’re just screaming out for attention. Well, maybe try and give them some attention and see if that helps, right?

Jane McFadden
I’m trying not to laugh too much into the microphone, because that’s actually a really great point. They’re crying out for attention, so we’ll just ignore the behavior and see what they do. That’s definitely a shame if you think about it.

Lindsay Keating
Yeah. I think there probably is some form of wanting attention. I don’t think it’s… like I said, every person’s different. I don’t think it’s like, oh, I’m going to go and make myself really sick and then I’m going to get the attention. Because what I know, and I said it before, is that I got quite quickly, because when I started getting the dopamine hit and the scale was going down, it happened really quickly.

And I remember I didn’t want anybody to see me. I was covering up my body. I did not want anybody to know. Because if they knew, they’d want to fix me. And I did not want to be fixed. Because the devil on my shoulder was enjoying it so much. Because the dopamine hit would be gone, right?

And so I think that something might start out like that. But you know what? If it starts out like that, and you give them attention, and then it doesn’t proceed, well, guess what? You’ve probably just done a lot of good for that child. You could have saved them from a very, very, very long journey of pain and recovery.

So yeah, I think it’s not something to just sweep under the rug. I’m a huge believer that if you start to see signs early, then to act on them and really just open communication, no criticism. Like one of the things that in my experience — this is going back so many years ago, and nobody, nobody talked about this stuff. Nobody knew about it, you know?

And I was told I wasn’t allowed to go to the gym anymore. And people would say things like, oh, what’s wrong with you? Just go and do this. And that was one of the hardest things. Because then all it made me do was want to not be around them. And so then I would even just move away even further and further.

And so I think one of the best things that we can do is to actually really try and embrace our children and try and have some open communication. Ask them what’s going on. Ask them, you know, why they might be feeling the way that they’re feeling. And start to just really open up those lines of communication.

Because the second that a child starts to feel criticized or starts to feel like they’re no longer able to do what they’re liking, then their instant reaction is just, oh, well, I just won’t be around them anymore. And then I can do what I want. So yeah, so I think it’s really important that any early sign is acknowledged and supported as well as possible.

And that’s where I often say, I wish that people were able to identify that I had ADHD back then, because then they could have probably supported the ADHD rather than just trying to fix a girl who had an eating disorder. I think addressing it like that is not going to get the results that everybody wants.

Jane McFadden
It’s so interesting. I’ve talked to quite a few people with eating disorders and — personal opinion — I’ve just noticed this. They seem to be very driven, successful, highly intelligent, competitive, and they have obviously very strong willpower. Like there’s a lot of willpower that has to go into that.

And I suppose it’s almost like someone told me once that to put on weight or to stop doing it would be like failure, like mediocrity, like they felt almost superior, like, I’m doing this and no one else can do this. Do you think that’s a part of it?

Lindsay Keating
Absolutely. I said that there was a perfect storm. I can list off all these different things that created a perfect storm. But one of them was, I read a book and I remember it vividly, Thin for Life it was called. And in that book, there was a line and it said, ‘If you want to be thin, only you can do it, nobody can do it for you.’

And it was like, ding, ding, ding, ding. Okay. Only I can do this. And so that was another little push to send me down that path. Yeah. So I think going back to — again — be very careful what our children are getting exposed to. I mean, you can’t wrap them in cotton wool, but try to have lots of really positive things around.

And there’s so much stuff around being thin. Everybody wants to be on a diet. Everybody wants to lose weight. What about talking about what’s healthy? What do balanced meals look like? I don’t think there’s enough emphasis on that.

Jane McFadden
This conversation is kind of doing my head in, to be honest. I’ve suffered from an eating disorder as well, from when I was probably about 13 to 21, on and off, same — anorexia. And I’m still battling in my mind whether it was a symptom of neurodiversity in a world that wasn’t fitting me.

Like I transferred to a high school. I read a book… and I read a book, but after I read the book — and I’m very, very into reading and writing — and I wrote a story about a girl that was anorexic. It wasn’t based off the book at all, but I loved the story so much that I wrote another story with like a whole another kind of, I suppose, spin on it.

And I won, I can’t remember, some big prize for it. And I got this big award and it was all this massive thing. And I think the dopamine hit really affected me on that too, because I got this recognition. And then exactly what you’re talking about — an uncontrolled environment, one that really didn’t suit me, that school definitely didn’t suit me — and a very successful perfectionistic drive and competitor created this storm for me.

And I’ve never really known whether the anorexia was a symptom of the neurodiversity untreated in a very bad atmosphere that was definitely not suited for me, or whether it was actually an eating disorder. Does that make any sense to you?

Lindsay Keating
Yeah. Yeah, it does. I mean, I don’t know because I’ve only just recognized that I’m ADHD. So it’s hard to, you know… and sometimes I think, okay, put that person here in this life now, how would it have been treated differently? But just hearing you say that, it reminds me of me a little bit back then.

It sounds like you had a little bit of like a hyper-focus around anorexia. You wrote two books about it, right? Or two stories about it. Because one of the things that I did is I became so hyper-focused around calories.

And I remember in my English class, I had a school project and I had to do a presentation in front of the class. And the presentation was you had to teach the class something. And I remember I taught the class how to read a food label on a packet of food.

And wow, I just think, what child teaches a class something like that? You know what I mean? There was clearly a lot of attention being put into that space at that time.

Jane McFadden
Wow. You know what? I did a research project on how many girls wanted to lose weight in our grade. I think it was. And there was maybe four classes a grade. And I mean, I think the atmosphere in that school was horrific.

And actually my mum was a nurse and she worked within the hospital space. And later on, after I’d left that school, there was actually all this stuff that came out — they had to go into that school and try and figure out what was wrong with it. Because there were so many girls from that school in hospital with eating disorders, they couldn’t figure out what the problem was.

But I remember doing this research project and I was like, that’s a really high number. So it’s interesting how you then take that special interest and put it into projects in school work. Like how did no one say anything?

Lindsay Keating
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was that same English teacher who ended up sort of uncovering it all. So yeah. Because I’m sure she connected the dots. We think we were being very clever and hiding everything, but I’m sure that she saw the writing on the walls.

And it was when I was wearing a jumper in class and I said to her, I’m cold, I need to go out to my car and get another jumper. And she was like, okay, this girl must have nothing on her bones — which I didn’t at that stage. So that was another little giveaway.

Jane McFadden
It’s so funny because I used to go into private school and I used to wear other people’s blazers. I used to make friends with people that were taller and bigger than me and then wear their blazers. So I’d have my t-shirt, whatever it is, like I’d have a spencer underneath — because I lived in Tassie — then the jumper, and then I’d have my blazer, and then have two more blazers on.

And I’d be like, oh, I’m kind of warm, but yeah. And you’d think someone would have said something, but anyway.

Lindsay Keating
Yeah.

Jane McFadden
Have you ever thought about your experience with your ADHD? You know what? I still am trying to unpack from 14 to 17. There’s a three-year period that I would really like to understand. The reason being is because I’m pretty confident that my eight-year-old daughter won’t go through teenage years unscathed. I’m very confident.

We didn’t have social media. There’s a lot more going on now. So I am driven by that. And I also notice online a lot in the Facebook groups, people will talk about their teenage daughters, and often the mums are just desperate. They don’t know what to do. And when they list out what’s happening and I read it, just my heart hurts.

I just feel… I don’t know. There’s like the neurodivergent girls who are often still not diagnosed properly. And I mean, I feel for the parents because I think these poor parents line the child up, take them to the GP, they take them where they think they should.

And sometimes, not always, they’re turned away because of a lack of education around females and neurodivergence. Then the parents go, well, I’ve already done that. And she was fine. So they kind of like cross that off in their mind that that’s done, but it’s not this, it’s not ADHD, it’s not autism because they’re too social or whatever it is. And then the child misses out.

And I totally understand why and how parents take them once and tick it off the list. I’ve actually done that too, but it’s only out of just continuing, continuing on. And then I just think, but now they’re 14, they’re hormonal, it’s looking like depression, it’s looking like a cry for attention. Is it an eating disorder? What is it? And it’s so complex. I don’t know where to start with it.

Does that make sense or am I just ranting? I just, I really feel for people.

Lindsay Keating
Yeah, no, I’ve come across it in my experiences as well. And parents are just screaming for support. They just… and that’s, you know, that’s why I’ve started my Facebook group and my podcast — so that way we can have the ability for people to ask their questions and get their questions answered by experts or specialists in different areas, rather than just unqualified opinions.

Because like, yes, I’ve had my own experiences, but that’s all they are. I’m not an expert by any means. You know, I can draw some conclusions based on my own experience and things that I’ve seen. But is that, I don’t know, is that going to work for somebody else? Not sure if, you know, maybe it will, maybe it won’t.

So I think it’s… and every child is so different, right? So for us to put our opinions out there, thinking that it’s what the other parent needs… well, every parent is so different. Every child is so different. Every solution has got to be so different.

So I think the biggest suggestion or advice would just be to be very curious and just try and understand as much as possible. The more that we understand our kids and the more that we understand ourselves and how our behaviours are impacting our children, I think the better off everybody is going to be. Because we’ll be able to get them the support that they need. We’ll be able to support them ourselves the way that they need to be supported.

Jane McFadden
Okay. So this is a good lead up to our next question. So what kinds of things do you think are helpful or unhelpful in terms of recovering from an eating disorder or having a child that’s maybe needing to recover? What would be some of the things that you think are some do’s and don’ts? I don’t know, every child’s different, but just some general ones.

Lindsay Keating
Yeah. Well, I think I mentioned it before, just about that — keep all the criticisms to yourself and continue having those open conversations. Try and find a child when they are more willing to have a chat. And I know sometimes it’s hard. It’s a sensitive topic. People don’t want to talk about it, but it’s really important that we have those open lines of communication and to continue including the child in all the activities.

And one of the things is, for instance, going out to dinner. Well, if somebody has an eating disorder, they’re going to be pretty uncomfortable about going out to dinner because what are they going to eat? They’re going to have to scan the menu 35 times and they’re going to have to memorize it before they go, and all these things. And they might order something that you might think, oh God, you know, I’ve taken them out to dinner and all they’re getting is, I don’t know, a little thing.

Well, do you know what? It’s still — instead of being critical about that, it’s just a blessing that they’ve actually come with you out to dinner. Because for somebody who’s suffering from an eating disorder, that in itself is quite a big challenge. So just, I think really having an understanding of the child and the eating disorder and what they’re actually going through, I think is hugely important.

And we’re very quick to — this is what, in my experience — we’re very quick to send our children to professionals to try and get them help, you know, send them to a psych, send them to a dietician, send them to somebody who can help them. But I think it’s really important for the people supporting them on their journey and who want them to recover is for them to go and get help as well. And to understand more about what they can do to support them.

Because at the end of the day, like for me at least, my experience with therapists — it was a disaster. I was humiliated. I was petrified. I didn’t want to be fixed. And I think if my parents understood that a little bit more, they might have found some other strategies that may have been a bit more supportive. I’m not sure. But yeah, I think not only trying to find some avenues to support the child, but also for the parents to get that support.

I know here in Brisbane, there’s the EDA, the Eating Disorders Association that was on it. And this was, you know, this was much later on for me when I was actually done with it. I was like, I just want to… I really wanted to have it done and dusted. And so I started going to the Eating Disorders Association here in Brisbane and they had recovery groups.

And in the recovery groups — I mean, I don’t have any family here — but I would go there and there was all the girls, and at that stage it was all girls. And then they would have the family groups going on at the same time in a room next to them. So I found those were really, really helpful.

And ultimately, it’s like an addiction or something. Until the person is ready to recover, it’s going to be really, really hard to make them recover. And I think just trying to create an avenue for people to develop more self-awareness so that they can understand why they might be behaving the way that they’re behaving. For me, it really wasn’t until I had that really great understanding of why I was doing it and why food was the… why it was that, and the control and all that sort of thing.

So there’s a lot to this road to recovery. But I think there’s a lot of resources out there. But yeah, speaking to people and professionals who are specifically dealing with eating disorders, I think is really important.

Jane McFadden
Yeah, I agree. I think that was my experience as well. My parents were very caring, but I did feel like they were fine. And I was like a package that was dropped off at an office. Like, can you fix that one? Because that one’s like, I don’t know what’s wrong with that one. And you know, how long till you fixed it? Kind of like, that was the vibe that I got.

That was how I felt about it. I’m sure that wasn’t the intention. But you know, back then I think things were different. And I like to think now that therapists are a bit more inclusive about including your family, because you’re completely right. The family is the main environment. So is there something that they’re doing that’s contributing to it? Maybe they’re unaware. Maybe you as a child don’t feel that you can voice it.

Lindsay Keating
Hmm. And you know, and another thing is like, look at the way that the family’s eating. Like if the person with an eating disorder is trying to limit their calorie intake and the family is eating food that is really unhealthy. Well, of course that child is not going to want to eat what the family’s eating, because they’re like, nah, nah, that is all no-go food.

And so then they’re isolating themselves. They’re creating their own meals, the ones that they feel comfortable with. Whereas if the family could take that on board and go, do you want… okay, yep, we realize that you want to eat really lower-calorie or specific types of food. Well, why don’t we create stuff together? Why don’t we make meals that you feel more comfortable eating, and then we can still continue to eat as a family.

So I think that would also be really beneficial. Because if everybody else is eating no-go food, well, the person with an eating disorder, they’ve got no choice. They’re not going to do that. So they’re going to be over here by themselves.

Jane McFadden
Oh, so I see what you’re saying. So if you’re saying it’s like, okay, every Friday night we have fish and chips at the beach, and that person is not anywhere near close to eating greasy fish and chips at a beach, that may not be the right place to take them there and then expect them to eat that. That’s probably too much of a stretch. That’s actually a really good point.

Lindsay Keating
Yeah. And you know, they’ll start coming up with excuses why they don’t want to go to fish and chips. And then they’re isolated. And you’re not ruining, but you’re not bringing them into the family and connecting. Because I suppose there’s so much secrecy. Then if you’re connecting in with that person, that would then reduce the secrecy, which would in turn improve the eating disorder.

Jane McFadden
Is that correct?

Lindsay Keating
Well, it’s just that communication and that connection. I think the more that somebody with an eating disorder can feel connected to the people around them, the more comfortable they’re going to feel. You know, they’re going to have a better sense of self altogether. And the more that they feel like, oh no, I can’t do that, or I can’t do that with my family, or I can’t do that with my friends… you know, like if they’ve got a heap of friends and they all go out drinking on a Friday night, well, somebody with an eating disorder probably isn’t going to want to go out drinking on a Friday.

So now all of a sudden they might lose a lot of their friends because they’re not doing what their friends are doing. And they’re trying to come up with some other… you know, like maybe they want to go for a walk instead. So they might connect with friends or family by going for a walk. And it’s like, okay, yes, it might not be… it might still be doing something that’s not great for the eating disorder, but at least you’re staying connected.

And I think the more that we can stay connected and keep people with an eating disorder in close, the more support that we can offer them. The second they go and isolate themselves, it’s really, really hard work to get in.

Jane McFadden
Yeah. It’s a great point that you’ve brought up, actually. So for you, Lindsay, having battled for 20 years, you said that you felt one of the main changes was that you really wanted to stop and you really wanted to start that recovery process. How important was it that you were actually ready? And second, when you were ready, what did you do that you thought worked?

Lindsay Keating
Yeah. So for me, it was about wanting to have a child because I stopped menstruating when I was 16 or 17. And so it was really about, okay, well, how am I ever going to have a child? And so I started… just changed, changed everything.

I started going to the Eating Disorder Association recovery groups. I started going to a… I’m not sure what his label is, a nutritionist or a dietician or somebody, but he had an acronym and it was called RAVES. And R was for… I can’t remember, regular. A was for adequate or amount or something. V was for variety. E was for… anyway, and S was for social. And it’s like, once you kind of tick all those things, because if you’re meeting all of those initials, then you’re going to be much more likely to have a healthy relationship with food.

So there was that side of things. I was also going for a lot of medical testing just to try and get my body right, which in the end of the day, it never really did come right. And the damage that’s been done is probably going to last a lifetime. But there was a lot of medical stuff. That was the big part of it.

And even just by going to those recovery groups and seeing the dietician and having lots more conversations and becoming open and not keeping it as a skeleton in a closet, I think that was really big for my recovery. Because my big thing is if we can’t talk about something, how can we ever support it? How can we ever become more educated? And yeah, just being much more self-aware and being really like brutally honest with myself.

Jane McFadden
Do you think that there’s anything that anyone could have done around you to convince you? Like, you know how you made the decision because you wanted to have a child — that’s a massive reason, right, to want to change something. If you’re thinking there’s something I need to do to allow this to happen and I really want to have a child. I can totally understand that. Especially with your level of willpower and drive, I can imagine you going, right, well, I am in recovery phase. And you’re going to want to succeed as well. You’re very successful, you’re clearly very smart.

Do you think there was anything that anyone could have said or done before that, before you made the decision yourself, that would have changed your mind or put you on the path to recovery?

Lindsay Keating
Well, one of the things — so I think I mentioned earlier that I was told when I was younger that if I lost one more pound, I’d have to go into the hospital. And that’s what made me go, okay, I won’t lose any more and I will just fly under the radar. But when we talk about recovery for an eating disorder, you know, you can be carrying enough weight. You don’t have to be underweight.

But if you’ve still got all the mental stuff going on, if you’ve still got the looping of the calories and constant calculating, that in itself — that’s the damage from a mental perspective. So I think it’s important to go, okay, yes, there’s a physical aspect of it, but there’s also the mental aspect of it.

And it’s like an addiction almost, you know. It’s that… when you’re really ready, or somebody — you know, we talk about other mental health challenges, sometimes when somebody is just really ready to be done with it, then they go and they get the help. But anything that somebody could have said to me, I don’t think so. I think it had to be internal.

Yeah. I could easily have just kept going under the radar and gone, oh yeah, I’m fine. Look at me. I’m fine. You know, look, I’m carrying enough weight. I’m fine.

Jane McFadden
That’s so interesting. I’m sure many ADHDers will be on this podcast thinking about all the bad decisions that they’ve made chasing dopamine. I think about decisions that I made, things I was doing that lasted two, three years, that everybody around me was telling me was not a good idea. But you’re right. There’s such an internal drive where I did not care what anyone else thought.

And I’m just thinking here, that’s so interesting. And it’s kind of a bit sad if there’s parents that are listening to this going, but I need to motivate my child to want to recover. But then I wonder then, do you need to pull the resources in preventatively then? Because if that person’s on that path, like, how do you… God, that’s huge.

Okay. So when I started to recover from food, it went into money. And it was all make and save, make and save, make and save. And I had this elaborate budget and my ex-husband used to call me Rain Man because I’d be in there every night and I’d be doing the budget. And it was amazing. Like for us financially, it was fantastic.

And then after that, I had a role where I was in Melbourne and I was commuting back and forth. And then after the money side, it went into schedule, schedule, schedule, schedule, schedule, schedule. And so I just think it’s good to understand our ADHD brains. I can only speak about my ADHD brain, but I know that it likes to organize things. It goes into hyper-focus.

So okay, if you’re going to go into hyper-focus, make sure that it’s something that’s really valuable, that’s not going to be damaging. And part of that I feel now with my business and I’m like that, or learning about autism. And I’m like, this is fantastic because it’s such a beautiful thing to hyper-focus on. And so when we can understand that, it’s like, my brain is going to hyper-focus whether I like it or not. There’s not a lot that I can do about that. So just choose wisely and find things that are going to be really beneficial to hyper-focus on.

Jane McFadden
That’s really interesting. My kids are very funny in that they will obviously have their hyper-focuses, which like as a parent, you get swept up into whatever they’re into. But I always try to make sure that I really cradle the ones that I like. If it’s gardening or anything like healthy, I’ll buy a bit more gardening tools, I’ll get a pot.

And if it’s something that’s kind of like outside and I think is healthy, I really try and like cradle and encourage it. And I wonder then if you can — this might be going too far — but I’m wondering then if you have a child that’s focusing on, let’s say, reading books about anorexia or food labels, or like, let’s say they’re in the beginning phases and obviously we’re not talking as experts, but I wonder if you could like divert focus into something else that they were interested in early on to work more preventatively.

Because it sounds to me like what you were saying in your own personal experience — I know not for everybody — that once it’s on and you’re in that frame and you had a perfect storm of things that happened, you were kind of unstoppable. And that’s how I think ADHD feels for me with hyper-focus. Like anyone can get in my way. I don’t care. I’m going to run over the top of you if this is what I want to do. But it’s just in an area that’s really unhealthy and damaging to that child or person.

And I’m wondering then if you can get in early and kind of like try and find something else as a backup interest they were interested in and try and cradle that, feed it. I think if my daughter was showing signs, I reckon that’s what I’d probably do. Well, I’d ring you first up and probably freak out and cry, but then I would be trying to find ways to not let it develop.

Lindsay Keating
Yes. Yeah. And the one thing that I… it’s like having an off switch. You know, when we hyper-focus, it’s really hard to have… we don’t have an off switch. And so if you can tap into… like for me, when I was in the thick of it, I really, I didn’t do it often, but when I would go out and be social, I loved it. And that was… you know, I’d have a few drinks and it would turn my brain off.

And then I could relax and enjoy myself. And I didn’t have that looping and the counting going on. And so then I got a boyfriend and we would go out, and that was my off switch. And so I loved that. So having things that can help with the off switch is really important.

And what we know is that we have to be almost private investigators to learn about our children, right? And learn what might be their off switch. And so if you can recognise that, then try and plug that into them as much as possible.

Jane McFadden
My mum used to go in and read my diary when I was at school. And it’s like, that’s such an invasion of privacy. But now speaking to you, I’m kind of like, she only did it after I was in breakdown mode. And I think she was so desperate. She was like, I just need to figure what’s going on. And then I realised she was reading it.

And I was like, oh God, like, what’s wrong with you? Don’t you have anything better to do? And now I think back and I think that poor woman was so desperate to help. And I think if I was that desperate and that was my daughter, I probably would do the same thing because you just love your child so much, you’re trying to figure out what to do.

And especially back then, you know, there’s not as much education and research and you didn’t have a lot to really work with as a parent back then, I think.

Lindsay Keating
Yeah. And I think also, like, observe your child. If you see them, you know, reading food labels all the time, if you see them reading books and magazines about weight loss or dieting, well, that’s a red flag. And treat it as a red flag and not just go, oh yeah, they’re just in a phase.

And you know what? They might be in a phase. But do you know what? If they’re not, you’re going to be glad that you’ve treated it as a red flag from the get-go. And you know, it doesn’t mean that you have to go and rip it out of their hands or anything, but just be very aware of it, maybe monitor it, and start having those open, honest conversations where you can open the lines of communication.

So that way, if they do start to go down that path a little bit further, you’re not then all of a sudden trying to open the lines of communication and they’re like, nah, nobody’s getting in.

Jane McFadden
Yeah. You’re too late. Yeah. I’m hearing what you’re saying. That’s a really good point, actually. So I was going to ask you what your message would be to mums of daughters or sons who are showing signs, but I’m wondering whether we’ve covered it. Is there anything you wanted to add to that or?

Lindsay Keating
No, I think we’ve covered just about everything. It’s such an important topic and one that is not spoken about near enough, I don’t think. And yeah. So thank you very much for having me on here and for having this conversation and allowing me to share my experience. Hopefully it will help to support other parents and children out there.

Jane McFadden
Absolutely. And one thing I was going to recommend after speaking to Lindsay, I was kind of cycling back in my brain about what I would do if that was my daughter and she was showing signs. If you’re not sure about neurodiversity, whether you do have a neurodiverse child in your house — because it can be very confusing, particularly with girls — I think a clinical psychologist, neuro-affirming assessment could be a good move.

Particularly if you’re going to a GP and the GP is saying, oh, they seem fine, or it’s not ADHD because they’re not jumping all over the room or whatever they say. It might be worthwhile early to get that exam, because if you are dealing with an ADHD or an autistic brain, you’ve got a whole other thing going on. And that’s okay because knowledge is power in this situation.

And I think if you do know that you have that neurodiverse brain, then maybe you go to a neuro-affirming psychologist to then treat an eating disorder. But I think coming at anything with a neurotypical therapist that doesn’t know that they’re dealing with a neurodiverse child — I think some of that recipe of disaster that you and I talked about with having maybe traumatic or not positive experiences has come from people being unaware of how our brain worked and us being unaware of how our brain worked.

Because I think if I had have known back then, it would have been a totally different ball game.

Lindsay Keating
Yeah, that’s what I say. If people knew that I had ADHD back then, they could have helped to support some of those ADHD traits — that hyper-focus and things like that — rather than just trying to fix the eating disorder.

Jane McFadden
Yeah, absolutely. Because one of the things that happened to me was I went to a Tony Robbins seminar, and I discovered personal development. And I just think it’s so interesting. I don’t want to minimize eating disorders at all, they are very, very serious. But I noticed that I had a distraction from my eating disorder. And that then became personal development.

And maybe that’s not then a real eating disorder, because I don’t want to minimize it, that you can just give them something else and they just do that, because that’s absolutely not the case. But what I am saying is that really changed the way that I approached food, because I was so into that. And there wasn’t a lot of internet back then. It’s dial-up. There wasn’t the same accessibility of information.

I had old CDs I used to listen to on a CD player in my room. And he talked about vegan diets and how important energy was. And for me, that was one of the things that helped me, because I was eating nothing. And then I went from eating nothing to a vegan diet. I followed the diet plan that he gave. And I thought he was the most incredible man that had ever lived. I was completely in love with him.

So I think then I kind of diverted my focus, which is kind of what you were talking about before, Lindsay. Maybe you don’t take them for fish and chips, because that’s too much. But maybe they can eat salad and a vegan diet. Maybe they can follow that. Because now when I look back, I think that had a really strong influence for me. And I think you’ve made a great point with that halfway mark.

Lindsay Keating
Yes. And I think also just having an option for them. And it sounds like your hyper-focus might have then gone into personal development.

Jane McFadden
It did. Heavy.

Lindsay Keating
And that’s a very healthy thing to hyper-focus on, right? And so, again, it’s just… if they are showing signs or are in the thick of an eating disorder and it’s been recognized that they also have ADHD, then knowing, oh, okay, they’re hyper-focusing. Maybe let’s look at some other things that we could maybe steer them to hyper-focus on.

Jane McFadden
Yeah, absolutely. Because I was drinking, I was doing drugs, I wasn’t eating, I was all over the place. I wasn’t going to school. And I went to this seminar with my mum for my birthday because she’d heard it was really good. And I think it probably cost them a lot of money — we were poor people, I reckon they were so desperate.

And my new real focus was health and wellness. So I didn’t then want to do drugs. I wanted to go to school because I wanted to study psychology. And I dropped out a lot of the negative behaviors because this was my new persona.

And that’s a very neurodivergent brain there, jumping onto something like a magnet. And I can see now why some women and men get diagnosed with bipolar, because that looks very different. It looks like a real bipolar, like mania up and down kind of thing. But actually, I think it was just like hyper-focus, special interest, who knows.

But for me, that worked. But as I said, I don’t want to minimize that you can just drop a new hyper-focus in front of an anorexic person. That’s absolutely not the case.

Lindsay Keating
Yeah, it’s fascinating that when we understand that we’ve got this hyper-focus ability, it’s like, that’s our superpower, right? Choose wisely.

Jane McFadden
Another thing that you said that I really have to highlight because I thought it was so powerful was one of the things that I think my parents did well was they really did the vegan diet with me. My mum always wanted to lose weight, so she thought that would be a nice thing. Probably she wanted to connect in with me, who knows. But she told me she wanted to do it.

And my dad had some really bad chronic pain. And Tony Robbins was all about like, that’s because it’s meat and it’s dead body in your body and blah, blah, blah. And this is all the reasons why. So because you’re hyper-focused, right? You’re so convincing. I convinced my dad to go vegan with me. And so we all went vegan.

And then we had our patties. It was actually a really powerful experience to do that as a family. And now I reflect back on it, I think that was a really key part for me because that happened later when I was really kind of on the path out of anorexia. I really started to recover at that point. And I think that what you said is so powerful because I think that actually was the makings for some of that recovery.

Lindsay Keating
Yeah. I think it’s so important to really stay connected and find some way, somehow. And if you can bring them into that, exactly what you said, I would think that would be hugely powerful.

Jane McFadden
Look, thank you so much for your time, Lindsay. I really appreciate it. I feel like I’m going to have to spend 48 hours thinking about our conversation because it was really interesting.

Lindsay Keating
No, thank you for having me. Pleasure.

Jane McFadden
And I will put all of Lindsay’s details on the bottom of the notes. So if anyone would like to locate her, find her, it’ll be on the notes, just jump down there.

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