Jane McFadden:

Welcome to the ADHD Mums Podcast, a safe place for everyday Australian mums to discuss their struggles with ADHD, motherhood and life. Hello and welcome to the next episode of ADHD Mums. Today we have Tanya Buck from Neurodivergent Empowered.

Tanya Hicks is a neurodivergent woman and she’s also a mum. She has a very strong track record in various professional arenas such as national management, neurodivergent affirming therapy. She also has international sporting background, which I found really interesting last time we spoke.

Tanya created Neurodivergent Empowered, which was really to fill a pressing need in the community where she only hires neurodivergent employees or staff. She looks after neurodivergent children, teenagers and adults to embrace their unique selves, foster self-confidence and discover genuine happiness. Tanya’s last episode was on masking.

If you haven’t heard it, I will put it in the notes. It will all be there for you. Tanya and I really spoke last time about how she’s a very proud unmasked woman, which was awesome. She really walks to talk. Welcome to you, Tanya.

Tanya Hicks:

Thank you. It’s great to be back.

Jane McFadden:

Now, Tanya and I, last episode started to really get down and deep and dark as autistic women do in the area of protecting vulnerable women and addressing the crisis of sexual assault. I have been looking forward to this conversation for weeks because I haven’t actually found someone who was willing to really go there with me.

I’ve asked a lot of people and I’ve had a few people pull out last minute. When Tanya kind of opened up a can of worms at the end of last episode, I really wanted to rebook her. I suppose if we just start out, Tanya, with kind of I suppose the major issue that we’re addressing is the big why.

Why do you think there are so many neurodiverse women falling victim to sexual assault, DV being taken advantage of?

Tanya Hicks:

This is going to be a numerous part to the answer. I’ll step bit by bit because there’s actually a number of reasons. I feel like a lot of people might think, oh, it’s this particular thing or it’s that particular thing, but it’s a collective of things coming together for really what is a horrendous amount of women being subjective to this type of abuse.

If I look first of all at vulnerability and trust, we have to remember that as autistic women specifically, we’re changing the game now. I feel like this is going to be different in the future. I feel like our daughters and our daughters’ daughters will be in a better position, but we didn’t have that.

I’m a 47-year-old woman. I will openly share because I believe that my story is bigger than me. I feel like that is part of my purpose. It’s not easy, of course, to share vulnerably, but I have been a victim of SA three times in my life. Each time it was like, wow, how did I get here, even as myself?

If I backtrack then, how did I get into those positions? Because I’ve had even the cognitive tests. I’m incredibly intelligent. I actually do have friends. I tick a lot of boxes for an autistic woman, but I still find myself in these vulnerable positions, even to this age at 47. We need to go back to childhood.

In childhood, we weren’t supported for our sensory differences as children. What does that mean as a little girl, a smart little girl? I learned to disassociate. I learned to disconnect from my body and what feels right for me and my body.

I could be like, oh, this feels uncomfortable. No, it doesn’t. It’s a normal shirt. Every child is wearing that shirt. Every child is wearing that uniform. This is all in your head, or you are inconvenient, or you’re a hassle because everyone else can wear this except for you.

As a little girl that wanted to fit in and have friends and be liked, you don’t want to be that person. I got really good at disassociating from myself, disassociating from my body, disassociating from my needs. That is the first step.

When you can disassociate, that means if you can think about what that looks like as an adult. I found myself in those positions and just get through it, just get through it. I’ve had a whole lifetime of disassociating from my body.

Jane McFadden:

This doesn’t feel right for me, but everyone else is okay, so I’m the problem. I just feel punched in the stomach with the way that you’ve just identified that so well. I just have to stop and be like, holy shit, I never thought of it that way because I had written down a few notes too that you get told that’s not a problem, that’s not an issue, that’s all in your head.

But actually taking it further into being then disassociated, oh my God, Tanya. Anyway, continue because I feel like this is going to be a half an hour answer to that big question that I asked you. I just want to stop and say, wow, that is so on the money. I haven’t actually heard someone articulate it that way before.

Tanya Hicks:

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. I hope this is going to be not easy, so I do hope this will help. If we peel back the layers and look at how does a person physically get into that position where they’re actually in that position, that really awful position, is that we’ve had a lifetime of disassociating.

We’ve had a lifetime of total disconnection from our bodies and what feels right in every single way. That is one of the biggest physical aspects I feel like that I don’t hear anyone talking about is that disassociation and that we’re told we’re good girls if we’re disassociated. We’re told and everyone, we want to be good girls.

We want to be liked. If I am not making life harder for other people, I’m being a good girl. I’ve taken that through from childhood through to adulthood. It’s something that I know I’m not alone. I know that if we’re not making a fuss, if we’re not being pushing back and difficult and stuff, and we’re just making it easier for everyone around us, we’re being a good girl and we want that feeling.

That’s number one, the physical disconnection from ourselves and our connection to what we feel is right for us.

Jane McFadden:

I don’t actually hear a lot of people talking about isolation, even from our own families. I’ll give my example. As a woman, an ADHD woman, I do things that can be quite risqué like I do burlesque.

I’ve done a lot of things that aren’t always socially acceptable. In families, if you don’t have your family or your circle coming and supporting you in the things that are important to you that they don’t understand, and then you have some type of, I’m going to just use a relationship in this instance, but then you have a partner who is actually, I support you in this, and they’re the only person, you’re going to, and I live this, you’re going to put up with more because you want to be supported. You want to be seen, you want to be loved for who you are.

If we don’t have that connection from people around us and we’re feeling quite isolated and being seen for who we are, we’re more likely to put ourselves in these positions where, number one, it could be repeated assault or repeated being treated less than because we just want to be seen for who we are. Are you okay?

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah. Oh, I am. It’s just, I think you’ve taken a slightly different slant that I’ve heard before. I think coming from lived experience is different as well than what you hear because I’m trying to share this is actually what’s happened to me and what keeps me in these positions.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah, and I think that’s what’s making me emotional because I’m hearing what you’re saying and it’s dropping in for me and I’m going, I haven’t actually heard it that way because same thing.

For example, I know that you’ve just said this, but this is an ADH thing. You need to repeat it back with your own example. I just was thinking, I remember being at school so many times wearing one of those itchy jumpers and everybody’s saying to me, no one else has a problem with that jumper.

It’s like Tasmania, so it’s freezing and you’re thinking, I’ve only got one jumper that I can put on and everyone’s telling me that no one else has a problem, but it’s really stressing me out. Then I suppose then having that feeling of being told that your opinion doesn’t matter or you’re not right in your feeling, which is exactly what you’ve said. Then when you’re getting those red flags, you don’t trust your gut, which is what you’re really saying.

I think I just was like, I didn’t realize because I would say that my upbringing, I was very blessed. My parents were great. However, we were definitely told not to complain. My dad would always, he was a tradie, he would work six to six in the cold and he would be like, what do you have to complain about wearing a jumper? Put it on, you’re lucky you’ve got a jumper.

You just felt like you didn’t have a choice, but to go along. I just think that has made things really difficult for me moving forward with then speaking up. I really, I just think what you’re saying is amazing.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah. There’s that aspect as well. I do see more and more people talking about the fact that as autistic women, we miss the social cues of when people are interested in us. If we take it from that point of view, so we only really see outlandish things like love bombing.

My personal life, it’s embarrassing, but I’ll share the men that I have seen, they would, they’d be professing love to me like when we first met and, or I’m going to leave my partner for you because you are so amazing or you have never felt like this before.

And I missed all the subtle little things, what the people that were calm and much more aligned to me. And it’s, I describe it as it’s like you’re colorblind and you look out into the world and you can physically only see people with red clothes on. You can’t see any other single person.

So if you’re only seeing this particular group of people, you’re just going to pick the best out of those people, right? But they’re all the same. If I’m only having people who are love bombing me, who are doing this big outlandish extreme behaviors, I’m only seeing them. Then my relationships are all going to be the same.

And that, if we’re talking about sexual assault and all this type of DV and things like that, that is why that repeatedly, that’s been my personal life is because I’m literally only seeing this.

Jane McFadden:

Oh, I love that. I wonder how many autistic women have got this experience because I feel exactly the same. Like when you talk about all the red t-shirts, I didn’t go for that type, but let’s say I went for the blue t-shirts, which were all like bad boys. Yeah.

If I showed any interest back or treated me terribly and I put up with it. But I wonder with the way that autistic women, a lot of us read, there’s so many of us that read. When I ask people what genre they like, a lot of women I’ve heard say they love love stories. I am a romance novel, hardcore person.

And when I was about 12, I’d already read all the books at the local library that were for youth or for kids. So I quickly moved to adults, which was probably not a thing, but there was nothing left to read. Right. Yeah. My parents just thought reading was positive. So I didn’t really monitor anything.

And I got really swept up with these romance novels that was like generally like a damaged man, a woman, this guy comes in, he’s this like masculine protector. And I really developed this type. What I missed was that I was reading those books, learning how to actually create my own social kind of rules, but I didn’t realize they weren’t real.

And I know that sounds really stupid. I did not know they were not real. So I actually thought I was in a love story a lot of the time. And then I would be like infatuated with somebody and have this whole romance novel with them. And they’re like, don’t even know that I’m there. It’d be so embarrassing.

And it just was this constant thing for me where I couldn’t understand why I wasn’t in a romance novel yet. I just didn’t get it.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And there’s not enough education for specifically autistic women about what love and a relationship actually looks and feels like because of exactly what you’re talking there.

And I can totally relate to what you were saying there, 100%. And because we were always looking for the social cues of this is right. I’ve been in like very calm, probably very supportive relationships as well.

And it was like, I don’t feel this excitement. So I’m going to sabotage this and get out of it. Cause this is not what it’s meant to be. And it’s only when I’ve got older that I’ve realized, oh, so that one that makes me feel calm and supported and protected. That’s the one. No idea this whole time. Absolutely no idea.

Jane McFadden:

Completely. And my husband who you’ve met, he’s the most beautiful, very gentle man. And my best friend said to me, if I wasn’t in a relationship, so she was already in a relationship. She’s like, if I wasn’t in a relationship, I’d pick him. She always had like long-term, like really solid relationships.

And I was like, oh really? And she’s like, you keep picking terrible people. Can you let me pick one for you? And I gave him a chance and we’re married. And if he would have been on a dance floor at a club and this is not a physical looks thing, I wouldn’t have been interested just because he was probably lacking all of that bad boy vibe thing that I was looking for.

And I didn’t realize that he just would write back to all of my text messages and just make plans with me. And I was so confused as to why he was being nice to me, took me on these most beautiful dates. I’ve never been on a proper date before.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah, exactly. And I think to not, when you don’t understand you have ADHD and that you actually need to proactively give yourself these kind of risque or excitement type of things, you’d look for that in your relationship, in your partner as well. So I was the same.

I actually didn’t know I had ADHD, but I knew I’d liked almost the chaos, the thrill, the stuff. So I’d go out for guys that rode motorbikes and that bad boy thing that you’re talking about there. But what I didn’t understand, it wasn’t the bad boy that I was looking for.

It was the ADHD excitement, the novelty, the chaos that I was looking for. But I didn’t understand that at then. Also that could lead me to a certain type of situation that we’re talking about with DV and SA as well. Not that I’m saying that everyone who rides a motorbike does that. That was just my example of that risque.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah. And then alcohol comes into play there too. And no, it doesn’t matter how intoxicated you are. That makes no excuse for anyone to do anything. However, when you’re drinking a lot more and it does make you even worse in your senses and knowing of what’s appropriate and what’s not, but you’re doing it.

I would always drink because I wanted that thrill, that excitement, the dopamine, what you’re talking about and going for the guy that had the motorbike or the fast car. I thought that was great.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah, exactly. And the alcohol is a massive one and I don’t want to underplay that. I spoke about this last time. I’ve openly shared that I misuse, I’ve abused alcohol as a coping mechanism and to create dopamine. Didn’t know that I was doing that at the time, but after being nearly three years sober, absolutely what I was doing and putting myself in positions because I was completely intoxicated in an attempt to fit in and dull my senses so I could be in a nightclub and be with friends.

It was a constant of putting myself into these vulnerable positions because I was trying to address all these other needs that I had with alcohol, which then ended up putting me in safe, unsafe positions as well. So it’s absolutely a factor we need to educate about.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah. And I think it’s social anxiety sits there which is so true.

Tanya Hicks:

Absolutely. Yeah. I think I read somewhere it was like, I think it was Tony Atwood and he said, there is no more anxious person in the world than a teenage autistic girl.

And then you add that with like alcohol and it’s just a medication really for a party or because you just don’t know what to do or say. Absolutely. Yeah. They call it the Dutch courage.

Jane McFadden:

I know, but for me, it’s my neurotypical words. I can be more neurotypical when I’m intoxicated. So totally get that.

Tanya Hicks:

Me too. It’s difficult, but then there’s always that feeling of regret the next day, even if I haven’t done anything necessarily wrong, but the anxiety that goes to what I didn’t say plagues me a lot.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah. And then the rumination of focusing on what potentially you think in your brain is the negative parts playing it over and over and over. And yeah.

And that also is a loop that keeps us in unhealthy relationships because we’re like, oh my God, I’ve gone out there and I’ve done this or I said that potentially in my mind, it’s horrendous. So I’m just going to stay with this person. That’s not treating me well because I know them and they’re going to like me because they’re with me.

Tanya Hicks:

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And then, as you said, I suppose, then it goes back to putting up with things, not seeing the red flags, seeing them and ignoring them where, because you’re so desperate or you want to be supported or you’re scared of being alone or whatever it is, you think you’re the problem is obviously, probably too.

Oh, absolutely. That part where the isolation has kept me in so many unhealthy relationships, so many. And it’s not just them seeing me and wanting to be with me even in an unhealthy way, but you have to understand as an autistic woman, I like structure.

I like routine. For me to end an unhealthy relationship, sometimes it feels better and easier for me as an autistic woman to stay in that relationship where I know I can predict moods, I can do this and that. It’s easier for me to do that than to do this whole big, scary change of life thing and leave and start again.

Jane McFadden:

It’s hard for anyone. I so agree. I read that the other day that it was saying that autistic people, if they break up in a relationship, even if they’re not in love with that person anymore, they grieve the fact that on Saturday mornings, they used to go here and have breakfast and do the same things.

And that’s actually hugely traumatizing for that person that there’s the loss of routine rather than what that person actually bought them. Yeah, for sure. It cannot be underplayed how big that is.

Tanya Hicks:

And definitely something that has kept me in unhealthy relationships because of exactly what you said. And it is trauma and it is real grief that I feel when I don’t have that anymore. Yeah, absolutely.

Jane McFadden:

So what kind of things do you think would keep us in those relationships that may not be healthy for us?

Tanya Hicks:

So one thing I don’t hear many people talk about is unemployment for autistic women and not just the amount of unemployment in general, because autistic women, if I can find the stats, I will, we’ve only got 34% of autistic women in Australia that have a steady, stable career, and that’s actually less than autistic men.

The reason for that is that autistic women are more likely to either work part time, they will choose to support their sensory overload, and they will actually choose a career that is less than their level of education, less than their level of intelligence, because it’s less demands in the workplace.

So because of that, that means that we’ve got a whole heap of autistic women that are incredibly intelligent out there, amazing women that are staying in unhealthy relationships because of financial pressure. They know that they’ll be homeless if they don’t keep in this relationship.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah. And then I have to wonder as well, do they also have autistic children or neurodivergent children that they then have to support?

Tanya Hicks:

Absolutely. I went to this psychologist convention a couple of months ago, and it was a neurodiversity one, and they had all these neuroaffirming, openly autistic assessors, basically. It was incredible, right? But one thing that they spoke about was the fact that you can’t really do a lot of bookings, because for them, they can only take their case load, they can only do it two days a week because of the intensity of it.

So booking in with some of these practitioners that are killing it in their space is incredibly difficult. But yet the neurotypical people are working 50 hours a week, cranking out the money and the patients, but they are not able to perform to that level.

Jane McFadden:

Absolutely. It’s a real thing. I’ve been a clinical hypnotherapist and a psychotherapist for about 12 years now. I was very successful, but being such a strong empath and being very good at what I did meant that I give so much more of my energy when I do that type of role.

So when I took on this company, I was like, I actually can’t work face to face with clients and I miss it. And I know that I’m good at it. And I know that I actually make a really great impact with that. But if I did that, then like you said, I’d be able to work two days a week and not make the impact that I want to make.

Tanya Hicks:

Of course, as well, if you wanted to be financially independent, how are you going to do that on two days a week?

Jane McFadden:

Exactly. And these are real things that we need to talk about more, that how do we financially compensate these incredible autistic women with all of these intelligence and things that they have to bring to the world? How do we adequately do that while supporting their sensory challenges, while supporting their cognitive, overlaid challenges, all these things? It’s a big conversation.

Tanya Hicks:

It is.

Jane McFadden:

And as you said, if you were in an unhealthy relationship and you had kids or whether you didn’t, how would you then sustain yourself with the living costs in Australia at this point to actually live independently? I don’t know how you’d do that.

Tanya Hicks:

You couldn’t. You couldn’t. And we live on the Sunshine Coast and we know that even trying to get a home on the Sunshine Coast, you just can’t at all. So when I first became single from my son’s father, that was 11, 10 years ago now, I already had my own little unit that I bought myself before I came into the relationship.

I literally tried to give the unit to him so I didn’t have a mortgage to pay. I was that desperate. We’re trying to, and he’s clearly my child’s autistic as well. And all of the stuff and with your kids, it’s massive. It’s massive on top of my stuff that I needed.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah. If we have like a cup, for example, and neurotypical people wake up and their cup’s empty and stress is more water in that cup. And we know that autistic neurodivergent people, their cup’s like half full when they start.

But for a neurodivergent woman with neurodiverse kids, then that cup is nearly full before you start work. So you’ve only got not very much capacity to then add in, study or work on top of everything else.

Tanya Hicks:

Absolutely. And that’s why we’re more likely to stay in these unhealthy and DV type of relationships. And the sad thing is there is a lot of us, like most of my girlfriends are neuro-spicy in some way.

And a lot of them do burlesque with me as well. And we have an event called White Lies once a year where we raise money for victims of DV. And some of the brave ones like myself get dressed up in our white outfit and we stand on stage as survivors to try and encourage other women to be brave and to support themselves and to make some big changes.

But you have to remember as an autistic woman to do the changes. It’s massive. You do not only have yourself. We just talked about our own kids. Our own kids, they need structure and routine. And you can’t tell me there’s many women that will go, oh, actually, this is going to be massive for my child.

I’m probably going to be of detriment to them to take them out of what they know and need and their structure routine. So let’s go and leave so I don’t have this anymore that I’m dealing with. There’s not many women that are going to be able to do that.

Jane McFadden:

No, especially if, I mean, I think a child would be affected, but if you were in the relationship and you felt that was a good father or a good mother or whatever relationship you’re in and you didn’t feel that the child was being affected, I would 100% suck it up. I can totally understand that attitude of, I will do this for my child.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah.

Jane McFadden:

And I know that happens.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah. I know I’ve had the conversation that is happening in our community right now.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah. And we’re used to that. We’re used to being the problem. We’re used to having to suck up.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah. It’s like a happy space for me. I’m like, oh, this feels familiar. Yeah. And because our children are purpose for us, we’re feeling that it’s something bigger than us. Our children are benefiting from our sacrifices as well, that it’s easier for us to disconnect again, disassociate and just get through this situation because we can see the purpose of something bigger in our minds that our children are benefiting from.

Jane McFadden:

Especially financially. If, you know, let’s say they’re in a private school or you just know that you can’t make ends meet, they can’t play soccer anymore, whatever it is, what are you going to pick?

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah. It’s a very, very hard situation.

Jane McFadden:

I completely agree. I don’t know what the answer is, but I can understand why people stay definitely.

Tanya Hicks:

For sure.

Jane McFadden:

Okay. So this next question, I’m pretty sure I know the answer to. There was a study and I’ll put the study in the notes that found that nine out of 10 autistic women have been victims of sexual assault. Are you surprised by that statistic?

Tanya Hicks:

No, absolutely not. When we talk about what we’ve talked about with disassociation and all of the isolation and the sensory overload and stuff, it makes complete sense that especially when women become of that age where they’re starting to use alcohol as a coping mechanism to socialize and stuff like that, that does not surprise me at all.

Would you like me to keep going straight through until the very end of the transcript, formatted in the same way?

You said:

Jane McFadden:

So it has only been recently that I have figured out that I’m very bad at reading social cues. I actually thought I was really good at it. I thought I was really good at it.

One of the things that’s happened for me in the last year or so is I’ve realized that I have actually no idea when another person is interested in me romantically. I have no clue. I’ve started to realize.

So for example, I’ve been going to this gym and I generally like to train with other women because I just find it more comfortable. And I like to train with other mums because we usually, it’s a mum vibe. Anyway, I got put with this guy and I knew he was a little odd from the beginning.

I thought, oh, this is someone that doesn’t really, people don’t really want to go with. But anyway, that’s fine. So me being me, I actually felt a little sorry for him. And I knew that no one ever wanted to be his partner. And I felt like he got a bit of a hard run. And so I asked him some questions about himself and I opened up a bit of a can of worms and he latched onto the fact that I was nice to him because I don’t think anyone usually talks to him.

And it created a real issue because he wanted to get my number. I ran into him a couple of times locally at the shops and he messaged me on Facebook heaps of times, when are you coming back to training? I’m looking forward to seeing you. Then he changed all of his times around so we could be together.

I ended up having to leave the gym because I couldn’t handle the stress of the anxiety of whether he was going to want to go with me or not. And I felt like I was letting him down by being nice to him, but then giving him the cold shoulder. And then I said to my husband, I don’t even know how I’ve gotten in this situation.

And it has been, I’ve had a number of them the last couple of years. And I don’t even know, it’s such a problem for me now because I don’t even know when to be nice to someone. It doesn’t make any sense to me as to how he thought that was me being interested.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah, totally can relate to the degree that I stopped having pretty much male friendships for a while there because I just didn’t get it. And I feel like a lot of that time is because as autistic women, we have this underlying probably unconscious feeling that how we think other people think, right? So because that is not happening, we’re totally blindsided.

So I’ve had a number of times, like you’ve just shared yourself where I feel like I’m just being a nice person, right? I’m not being rude. I’m generally am interested in what you’ve got to say, but that doesn’t in my mind, equivalent to me being romantically interested in you. But what I’ve been given feedback from other people when they’ve witnessed me, it’s, oh, you, because you’re giving them your attention means you’re interested.

Jane McFadden:

I’m like, how does that work? That’s what my husband says to me. And I said, don’t make this my fault. I’m just being a nice person. Like I treat him, I would treat him the same as I treated any other woman, man there. It’s the same.

Tanya Hicks:

He’s like, don’t treat them the same.

Jane McFadden:

I’m like, oh, this is too fucking confusing.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah, it is. It is too confusing. And that’s why I got to the stage for a long time of only just starting to be open to having male friendships now. But it was like a good 10, 15 years. I just didn’t have male friendships because I kept getting myself in this situation.

Whereas if I’m nice to you, if I want to have engaging conversation with you, if I want to be interested in what you’ve got to say, show genuine interest, which I usually do, I’m like, oh, this is interesting. I want to have a conversation about this. But if I do these things, then apparently from a neurotypical perspective, that’s me showing that I want to date you. For me, that just blows my mind.

Jane McFadden:

It really does. And it makes me really second guess if there’s a dad at school. And I typically, again, neurodiverse women, I think, enjoy talking to men. I do. I love talking to the husbands. I can get on quite good generally with a neurodiverse woman these days.

Neurotypical women, I do struggle with a bit. But I can get on with pretty much any husband. If I’m at a social thing mixed with partners and everybody else, I’m generally hanging out with the husbands, generally. I find them easy. But then now I feel like I can’t do that because I’m so paranoid that someone might think I’m cracking on to someone’s husband.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah. Because I’m just comfortable. Exactly. Been in that situation too, when people thought I was flirting, when I literally was engaging in conversation.

And if we pair that back to being a teenager, exact same situation that has led me to be in those uncomfortable positions where I’m like, oh my gosh. And people like, oh, but yeah, you’re asking for it. You’re giving them all your attention.

Whereas I literally was interested in what you had to say.

Jane McFadden:

But how are you supposed to act, Tanya? This is the same because if I give somebody my attention, and sometimes it sounds really awful, but sometimes I do it more so because I pity someone. It sounds horrible.

Tanya Hicks:

I get that.

Jane McFadden:

But if someone’s really got low self-esteem and I feel a bit bad for them, I really want to give them attention because I just feel a bit bad for them. And that seems to be my cycle is I feel a bit sorry for them or I feel a bit bad for them. And I give them my attention. I listen to what they have to say. I say something nice to them. And now I’ve got this can of worms. But I’m like, so my attention then equals I want to sleep with them. I don’t understand it.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah. Yeah. I have the same confusion. And what you’re speaking to there, I’ve had repeatedly because as a part of, we see ourselves a little bit in that, that person not being seen, heard, wanted, whatever, because we’ve experienced that for ourselves, right?

We understand what that means because usually we’re only showing this masked version of ourselves anyway. Then when we see someone else that’s vulnerable, that’s isolated, it’s, ugh, my heart sees your heart.

Jane McFadden:

Exactly.

Tanya Hicks:

Exactly. Yeah. And I don’t have an answer to that other than to have some of my girlfriends try and point stuff out for me that I’m not aware of and in relationships before I’ve had to ask.

But in, when I’m in a relationship, I’m at the stage now where I just don’t talk to another man because I don’t want to then put the conflict in the relationship as well that I’m not knowing that I’m creating this situation over this side just by having a conversation. I just don’t even speak to the opposite sex when I’m in a relationship. I’m at that stage.

Jane McFadden:

See, it’s funny because I felt like I was a bit more guarded when I was single, but because I’m in a relationship and I wear a wedding ring, I just assumed that it was obvious. And that’s been confusing to me because I’m like, I’m, but I’m wearing a wedding ring. I’ve spoken about my husband and my kids.

How are you still getting this vibe? That’s what, but then it’s sad because I think people miss out. So now I have to avoid people and not speak to them because for fear that they will think I’m interested. It just seems fucked up.

Tanya Hicks:

It does seem fucked up. And the rules, so your rules that you have for yourself, if I’m wearing a wedding ring, if I’m talking to you about my children, these are my signs to tell you I’m not available. That’s not what the rest of the world hears or sees.

It’s just, if there’s an opportunity. And as I said, I’ve had some relationships, especially in my twenties. And I was attracted to that chaos where men would be, Oh, you were so amazing. I’m like, I want to leave my partner for you. And I was like, Oh my God, this person’s so in love with me. And of course that that was just a type of person that I was attracting at the time.

Jane McFadden:

And they’re probably showing you signs. This has happened to me. Yeah. For like six months before that. And I’ve then continued at the same level of friendship. I think not seeing it progress. And then I end up with this situation that I’m like, how do we get here? I don’t even understand what you’re talking about.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah, for sure. It’s like we’re blindsided, which we are absolutely blindsided of how do we get to this position? But then if we pull back the layers for six months, as you said, there would have been things that we just didn’t pick up. It’s just, it’s just not there.

Jane McFadden:

But then I have a real problem because my hubby and I spoke about this and he was saying to me, this is basically things that you’ve done to create this. Or what did you say? Or I’ve sat down with him and gone, especially with the gym one, because I was really devastated.

I had to leave that gym. And I sat down with him and said, I really want to understand how this has happened. This is what I did. This is what I said. Can you tell me? And he’s like, Oh yeah, a hundred percent. That looks like you were.

And I was like, what?

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah. And then I feel like it’s my fault. And then I get that message again. This is my fault. You’ve created this and it’s like, yeah, you’re wrong. You’re saying you weren’t doing anything, but you were, you can’t trust your gut.

Jane McFadden:

And then I just think, fuck, I’ll just give up then. Like you just feel defeated.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah, you do. And I feel like that’s the area that we really need to empower our girls in and our ladies in and our children in is that we need to bring it back to being able to trust ourselves. Because I lived most of my adult life, not being able to trust myself, which is a really shit way to live. It really is.

Jane McFadden:

It is. Okay. So what can we do then to protect our children, particularly daughters, but I suppose boys as well, because they can obviously marry somebody that’s not, there’s a lot of different forms of abuse.

Tanya Hicks:

There is absolutely. I feel like we need to have more education in our society about autistic people and we need to have it said to us straight. We do. If you’re interested, you have to say this, this whole, you should actually know these neurotypical signs. That’s not valid. It’s not real.

We don’t, we can’t. So as a society, we also have to learn about each other. It’s not just us learning about neurotypical ways. Neurotypicals need to learn about holistic and autistic ways, especially if you’re going to be in a relationship or a friendship, there’s that whole of community education about each other.

The other thing is we need to really empower our, especially autistic girls about not disconnecting and disassociating from ourselves. So the reason that I create what I have called the Emerging Leaders Program was twofold.

One is that as parents, we are so gung-ho of protecting our kids now, which is amazing, that they are really reliant on us. But what that also means is that’s pretty much who they have to rely on when they’re transitioning into this adult world. There’s a lot of things when you’re transitioning to an adult world that you don’t necessarily want to talk to your parents about.

So in our Emerging Leaders Program, it’s the first step where the individuals themselves have to come to me and not through their parents. So they do a job for me. The parent’s not allowed to get involved. They have, they can have conversations together, but it’s about the child being learning to have a voice because that’s the next one. They need to have self-advocacy skills. They need to actually be able to speak for themselves because these are the positions that we’re talking about.

Mum and dad aren’t going to be there. And there’s not enough programs around or opportunities for our kids who are already isolated. Our autistic kids are already isolated and they have this reliance on their parents more than other neurotypical kids. But we need more opportunities for them to have contacts outside of mum and dad where they’re using their voice. They’re starting to advocate for themselves.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree. There should be some kind of dating book for teenagers. Hey, because I was just was thinking then how do they learn? Because I was learning through romance novels, which I don’t recommend. How do they actually learn? Because I was asking you what we should do. You didn’t know. I didn’t know. You’re 47. I’m 37. We don’t know.

I just started thinking if we’re saying, I’m going to say to Gigi, my daughter, don’t learn from romance books. But then where do they learn? Because I love what you’re saying about having a voice because I was thinking about all the times it’s happened to me many times where maybe you’re there with somebody and they’re assuming that you want to go further than you wanted to or whatever it is that’s going on. And they’re like, oh, but you said this or did that or, oh, but we’re here now and I said this and you followed me.

And then you feel like sounds really bad, but you’ve let them down or you owe them something. It’s true. But you didn’t realize that when you agreed initially to this statement, it was not confirmed to you what that meant.

Tanya Hicks:

100%. So when you’re talking about finding your voice, I’ve been in lots of situations, which is awful, where I’ve then felt like I can’t say anything because I should have behaved differently 10 minutes before, but I didn’t know that that was part of it. But then actually standing up in that moment and going, no, I’m not okay with that.

If you have the opportunity to, if you don’t, it’s awful. But then I suppose what you’re talking about is practicing using your voice, which I think is really important.

Jane McFadden:

Absolutely. And the first place our kids need to practice using their voice is with their parents. As a teenager, it should not be still mum and dad dictating. It’s, well, what do you think? And that’s really difficult when you’ve been the person to go into bat for your child at school, go into bat for them at social and you’re the one. And then suddenly it’s like, all right, now they’re becoming a teenager and it’s now you’ve got to step back and they’re allowed to have an opinion different from yours. That’s hard. That’s hard.

I interviewed Emma Rose Parson a few weeks ago on the podcast and she was talking about how we as mothers are so good at problem solving, but because we jump in maybe a little too quick, sometimes our children don’t practice problem solving. And then, you know what you’re saying, using their own voice because we are then helping them. We already know how to problem solve. We’ve got that skill down.

I said, maybe for partners, male and female, maybe we’re not allowing them to have a practice with problem solving either. Because then, as you said, you’re in a situation where you maybe need to problem solve, use your voice, but you haven’t done it before. And now the stakes are really high and you haven’t practiced.

Tanya Hicks:

You haven’t practiced. So if you really want to, your child, because everyone’s, I just want them to say no in that position, for example. Okay. Where are the opportunities if we pull the layers back that they’re allowed to say no to you? Where can they say no and go, actually, I don’t want to do that. Actually, I don’t want to wear this. Or actually, I don’t want to eat that. I don’t want to sit at the table. Where do they have the opportunity to say no? Because they don’t have any usually.

And then we want them to stand up in a situation, as you said, where they feel they’ve let someone down, they’ve led someone on, they’ve said the wrong thing. And then we want them to say no in that position.

Jane McFadden:

Oh, Tanya, you and I speak the same language because my hubby the other day, he can be a bit old school. And he said to me something like, sometimes I just want the kids to do what they’re told. And obviously frustrated, right? Yeah, I get that. And it was a frustrating situation for, I totally get what he meant.

And he’s like just fuming and like letting off steam. And I said to him, I totally get it. It would be a lot easier. However, if we expect them to obey authority, no matter what, when we have a kid that says, oh, this adult told me to come this way with them and take their clothes off. And they did it because an adult told them to. How are you going to feel then?

Tanya Hicks:

And he’s like, he like freaked out.

Jane McFadden:

He was like, I don’t like it when you give me those examples.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah, I know, but they’re real, real examples. Yeah, real examples.

Jane McFadden:

And they do. And the authority thing is massive. The authority thing was my first SA experience is that I was always told that the person in authority, they know best. They’re the ones that have the knowledge more than you. And so when I was in that position, it felt wrong to be all the lead up. And then it was like in that position, I’m here, I got to follow through.

Tanya Hicks:

This is just going to happen. Disassociate and get through this because that’s what my life was like. I was told that people in authority knew more than me and about me.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah. And obey adults. I heard someone the other day at a sporting field address their daughter and the coach told the daughter to do something. And she said no. She had a friend she was waiting for or something. And she said no to the coach.

The father came over and gave that girl a dressing gown like I’d never seen in front of a group of people and told her to obey authority no matter what. And how dare she say no to her coach. If he asked her to do something, she should do it.

I had to walk off and Jez had to say to me, you need to go for a walk because I was about to unload onto this father. I was like, that girl’s seven. What are you teaching her? Oh my God. I couldn’t. And then I had to go for a walk because Jez, it’s not your place. You need to go. I had to walk away because it was like, he wasn’t going to listen. It was a pointless conversation, but it was just terrifying for that poor girl.

Tanya Hicks:

It would have been. And like I get, there’s so many people so worried that they’re going to have spoiled kids. Do what you’re told or else you’ll be spoiled or whatever. And we want our kids to grow up and be really great humans. I get that. But we also need to have our kids grow up to be connected to their souls and connected to what they feel is right for their bodies. Because if we don’t, like I’m an adult owning, this has happened to me. This is on the after picture. If you do not empower your kids, if you do not empower your teens, I don’t want that. What’s happened to me to happen to the next generation.

It doesn’t need to happen. If we can empower our kids with a voice.

Jane McFadden:

I agree. I wonder about maybe just having a few one liners you teach your children like that they can practice.

Tanya Hicks:

Absolutely. Like I need to leave or I’m sorry, I’m not feeling well, or I don’t know. Like I’m trying to think of a way of what would have worked when I was in those situations because I didn’t know what to say. Cause if you’re right, I hadn’t practiced.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah, exactly. I think that’s a great, I can’t think of one off the top of my head, but I think what you’re saying is on the money that we need. Cause we have these for our kids at school, for example. And if they don’t have the words to be able to have a one liner or whatever to say to the teacher, if they need to go to the toilet or something like that, we need those two for real life examples.

We need real life examples of how we can empower our kids in these overwhelming, stressful situations where I can tell you, I lose my words when I’m in a stressful situations, like my head and my mouth do not connect. So for me to articulate in that position that I’ve been in a number of times when I’ve realized, Oh shit, this is where I’m at. There’s no way I would have found the words.

Tanya Hicks:

So I do believe we need to have this practice repetitive situation where kids, it’s not even enough assertiveness. Like I think I probably, I’ve noticed I’m very passive. So if I say, if I don’t actually want to do something, I’ll say, I don’t think I want to do that, which opens up a conversation that person can then go, Oh, this is why you should, where you’re right. You want to have that muscle that you’re practicing saying no in those situations.

You know how you always hear those things on Facebook and it’s you know, your kid says pineapple to you or something in a message. And then, you know, you know what it means.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah. I wonder if we need to practice that in those moments, like what you were saying where that way know what to do, because that was really missed from my teenage years, because then you start heavily drinking because you’re anxious. Yes. And I’m also living in a romance novel. Don’t forget with one person that doesn’t know I exist. So, you know, imagine that that person shows me attention. I have no idea what to do.

Tanya Hicks:

Yes, exactly. I think all those scenarios, we may need to really social story that up.

Jane McFadden:

Absolutely. And not going out on our own ever. We don’t let that were rules and their rules that I say to our girls that come into the nest here, we don’t go out by ourselves. We don’t come home by ourselves. Like we’re always, and those signs you talk about absolutely could be used in those situations as well with your girlfriends or your guy friends, doesn’t matter where you got the words. You need some help in that situation. What’s the sign that we’re giving each other?

Tanya Hicks:

Absolutely. Because I think as well, if you do have somebody that’s neurotypical and they understand the rules, the social rules. So it’s not even, we’re not even talking about malicious, violent offenders. We’re just talking male or females who go, come over here. We’ll have a drink in the quiet or let’s go for a walk or come into this room. And you’re agreeing to all of these things. And they’re thinking that you’re knowing what they’re saying.

Jane McFadden:

I was saying that to my husband the other day, because I said to him, I’m not, because we’re talking about my eight year old or nearly nine year old. I said to him, I’m not talking about violent offenders. I’m talking about people that she’s friends with that from their perspective, don’t understand.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah, exactly. And I’ve had my drink spike before I’ve been out and with my partner and he was at a place and I was with my girlfriends, but that also that lack of social cues. So what happened with my drink was that I was at the bar and he kept leaning in to speak to me. And of course I had my drink in my hand, leaning in, leaning it. And, and it was just lucky that my, my boyfriend was there because he checked up on me at some stage and all I remember, my legs got real heavy and I cut and I woke up in hospital.

So totally passed out. So yeah, it’s, and it’s that easy, like little things of not knowing, not bring a cup in when you’re leaning in, stuff like that. I would have no idea.

Jane McFadden:

I’ve had my drink spike too. It’s just, I know and I get it. And I just, I was trying to actually think of how many, this sounds awful, how many sexual assaults I have. And I don’t even know because it depends on what your version of it is and the way that it is now with what is, opens the door right up to a lot of experiences where I started to really think before this conversation with you, what would I class as what?

Because now that it’s a bit more open, you’ve got to think of all the times you were taken advantage of, didn’t know what you were doing, didn’t understand what was happening. And then as well, from the other person’s perspective, if you then, I remember, for example, one particular time when I was 16 and I’ll always remember, and it was, I went into a room with somebody that I really liked and I didn’t realise that was a calling card for anything. And we didn’t go the whole way, but there was things that went on that I wasn’t comfortable with and I was very drunk.

And the next day I said to a few of my friends, I felt really uncomfortable and that wasn’t who I was, that I wasn’t choosing to do that. I felt really taken advantage of, probably in some much more immature words than that. And of course, girls being girls went and told everybody or more people and then it all got her out. And then he turned around and of course said, what did she expect? And it was all her fault. And there was all this lead up because we texted and that’s what she wanted. She’s just changing her mind now because she doesn’t want to be called a slut or whatever.

And then it was just really confusing because I wondered then, then it stopped me, if I’m honest, from saying anything about anything ever again, because I just had this experience of the whole suburb, basically it felt like being against me. So I feel like shame stops us from speaking out and because we’re intelligent and then we replay and then people point out things that seem quite obvious once they’re pointed out to you. And then it’s the shame, the shutdown, the sensory stuff that we go through when we’re going through shame that stop us from speaking out, that’s keep us in unhealthy relationships.

And also we don’t want to, like for me, because it’s happened to me a few times, I don’t want to be this person. That’s so fucking clueless that I’m in this situation again. So I just, I stopped telling people.

Tanya Hicks:

So the shame and the lack of speaking out is massive because I feel like happens more than what we actually want to admit because we want to be better than what we are. We want to be able to pick up on situations more than what we do, but we also have a clear disability in this area and that’s okay.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah. It’s interesting. I was in a long time ago, I actually found a printout of something I’d written and I had, it must’ve been the internet was just coming out. There must’ve been a chat room and I started talking to a random in a chat room about my experience that I just spoke about and what happened.

And I wrote, I have been Googling SA and I think that this might be it. And then I wrote down what had happened and I had to ask this unknown person who knows who it was, whether it was or not. And I’ve read it and thought that poor girl who had to write online in a chat room somewhere because she didn’t have anyone to talk to, to try and validate the experience with some random, it was probably like a predator adult back then.

There was no, to try and get a reference point for what’s okay and what’s not. I just thought, Oh my God.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah, exactly. And yeah, that breaks my heart because, and I could totally relate. Most of my closest confidence are being unknown people on the internet. So I feel like that’s also how we can support our autistic females more and autistic males is to understand that this is part of the disability.

And so if you expect that they’re going to learn after that one time, that is, that’s setting them up for failure. So coming into the conversations and repeated conversations about, Oh, why did you get yourself in this position again? Why didn’t you learn from last time? They are not helpful conversations because this is part of the disability. So we need to have supports around them where they cannot see that situation.

We wouldn’t expect a person to go, Oh, you’re in a wheelchair. Understand that you couldn’t walk this time. Why didn’t you walk the next time? We don’t expect that, but we do expect people who have a psychosocial disability to, to learn. And that’s, that’s not appropriate at all.

Jane McFadden:

It’s why we stopped talking to you. I totally agree. And I think maybe it’s opening up those awkward conversations that no child ever wants to have with their parent. I remember trying to talk to me about something. I’ve got into a walk-in robe, locked it and refused to come out because no one wants to do it, but maybe you need to open up those conversations.

Okay. So something has happened to you, or if you’ve got a son, you have done something you thought was okay. She said, it’s not now something’s come up on social media. What do you do? Maybe those conversations need to be brought up this and, or as a mother, you say, this is what I would do. I wouldn’t go with the, to the police without your consent. I wouldn’t go to the parent without your consent because sometimes the neurodiverse brain really makes up, catastrophizes what they think the parent would do.

Tanya Hicks:

For sure. Yeah. I think it’s really important and getting ahead of the game, like having the conversations clearly before they’re in the situations where those things could happen. We know we need to even role play, have these things have played out in our mind before we’re in the situation. So then we’re better equipped.

Jane McFadden:

Oh, absolutely. Cause I think, yeah, you do have that thought around as a child, what would my parents say? Would they be angry with me? Blah, blah, blah. Yeah. It’s a great point.

Just open it up right up. Like, what if you do wake up passed out? What do you then do?

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah. Because I wonder as well, sometimes if you do have somebody, let’s say lost, they’ve been separated from their friends, whatever it is. And they don’t call their parent and they try to come home alone because they don’t want to bother anybody. And then they find trouble along the way.

Jane McFadden:

Oh, for sure. I would want my child to ring me. I wouldn’t want them to try and solve it themselves and make a bigger mess.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah, exactly. And the other thing is too, especially because I have a son and I’m single mom, I feel like it’s really important that I get trusted people around him. So it’s like, well, if son, if you can’t speak to me, he’s all the other people. He’s our village of trusted people that I want you to speak to because I’ll find someone and you don’t want it to be the person who’s going to lead them down the healthy path.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah. Like me writing in a chat room, asking a stranger a really serious question. I should have known who to go to.

Tanya Hicks:

That’s a great point.

Jane McFadden:

Okay. Tanya, that was incredible conversation. Thank you so much for your time.

Tanya Hicks:

That’s all good. It’s helping me heal as part of this conversation as well. So I appreciate the opportunity.

Jane McFadden:

I really love what you said before about my story is bigger than me. I wrote that down because obviously I share a lot too. And it’s due you. And sometimes I wake up when you do start to feel that anxious of why maybe I shouldn’t be doing it. Wouldn’t it be easier to just be nice and quiet and just listen to others? But I wrote down what you said. I’m going to stick it on my mirror. My story is bigger than me. I really think there has to be people in this space to make change.

Tanya Hicks:

Yeah, for sure.

Jane McFadden:

If anyone would like to find out more about you, Tanya, I’ll put all of your website details on the notes. If there’s any particular programs, I think you said the Emerging Leadership Program?

Tanya Hicks:

Emerging Leaders for our teenagers.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah. Perfect. And that’s available on the Sunshine Coast.

Tanya Hicks:

It is.

Jane McFadden:

Thank you so much for your time, Tanya. I really appreciate it.

Tanya Hicks:

Pleasure. The key message here is you are not alone.

Jane McFadden:

Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, follow us on Instagram or head over and join our amazing ADHD Mums Podcast Facebook community. Everything you do matters and helps to spread the word about what neurodiversity in females looks like.