Jane McFadden:
Welcome to the ADHD Mums Podcast, a safe place for everyday Australian mums to discuss their struggles with ADHD, motherhood and life.

Hello and welcome to ADHD Mums. We have another topic which is one of the most requested topics, and I always struggle to find people that are willing to talk on it.

We have got ADHD and autistic friendships and I’ve brought on the great Michelle Garnett and Tony Atwood. Welcome to you.

Michelle Garnett:
Oh, thank you.

Jane McFadden:
The great Michelle. Oh, you know what? My hubby and I were talking late at night and we were saying, who would you go like out for dinner with or whatever? Like if you could only pick your top 10. And I was like, Michelle and Tony would have to be in it.

He’s like, what do you want to ask? And I was like, I don’t know, just anything.

Personally, I’ve discovered you both from my autistic clinical psychologist that diagnosed us. You know, when you hear that news that you’re not expecting, I was pretty shattered.

And you don’t get a lot of process time either, because I didn’t realize when I arrived there what was going to happen. I thought we were doing a very simple thing.

It ended up being much bigger than that, which is full respect and thank you to the clinical psychologist for doing that for us. But I was really thrown.

And when I went and did your courses, I was really grateful that it was only a short gap between finding out, being really spun out, to about a week of doing one of your first courses.

So I found you guys to be a real lifeline in terms of it’s okay. This isn’t catastrophic. We’re okay and we can get through it.

So I always try and showcase you both because I think if people can discover you early on, it saves some of that, you know, you’re talking to a friend who says something really awful accidentally.

Michelle Garnett:
Wow. Thank you. That is like our dream come true, Jane. Yeah. This is why we’re in it.

We want people to understand that being neurodivergent autistic ADHD is not a doom and gloom story. It’s an amazing story, but it does require knowledge, which is why we’re just so supportive of what you’re doing because it’s not the dominant paradigm. It’s not everyone that thinks this way.

We are a neuro minority. So that knowledge is super, super important. And then attitude — that it’s embracing it.

It’s about respect and affirmation and wonder and curiosity so we can learn more and then become our authentic selves. So it’s just wonderful to get that feedback. Thank you, Jane.

Jane McFadden:
So Tony Atwood, Michelle Garnett, all of their information will be on the show notes. So I’m not going to go into all of their story. They’ve already done two different episodes, which are listed in the show notes.

So if you love this episode, you can always go back, listen to the other ones. We’re going to jump right in.

How are ADHD and autistic friendships different to neurotypical people?

Michelle Garnett:
Great question. And I’m going to actually talk about them individually — autism and then ADHD. But of course, you can be an AuDHD-er and have both. And so that’s fun. And a lot of us relate to that.

Certainly for our autistic kids, they are great friends. Amazing qualities for friendship — loyalty, honesty, very often keen for friendship, keen for deeper connection too. But they find socializing really difficult.

As kids, and certainly as an adult autistic woman, I can relate to this and went through this as a child. But just talking about the kids’ friendships when they’re autistic, there’s two things that are huge going on.

One, interpreting the social cues — the context, the cues on the face, facial expression, tone of voice, gesture. What does that all mean? How do I make sense of it and formulate an answer?

And two, just also understanding friendship itself. What does that mean? How do I make a friend? How do I keep up? It can be very confusing.

What we find is that autistic individuals tend to enjoy closer friendships, often around interest, sharing information.

As one of my wonderful autistic friends says, I just love getting together for a special interest dump. We just dump information on each other. It’s awesome.

And that’s a lovely autistic friendship. It can be small groups, maybe up to four, but essentially they like the smaller groups.

By the way, you can be autistic and introverted or extroverted just as you are neurotypically. Same with ADHD.

ADHDers tend to be considered more extroverted and more socially motivated, but it’s not always true. There are introverts.

With ADHD friendships, there can be a struggle to maintain focus and concentration in the actual conversation or the play. So the person is often off track or misses what was said.

They don’t want to ask to repeat, so they say something else, but it doesn’t land. It can be quite out of the blue, random, a little bit hard to follow.

A neurotypical person can be thinking, well, this is odd. This feels different. I don’t know how to have this conversation.

Also, the person may just be impulsive and not mean to, but in neurotypical code, we don’t interrupt each other.

They are just impulsively interrupting. And they do that because they will forget what they want to say and they want to share. So it’s a very friendly behavior, but it doesn’t necessarily land well.

And the other thing we found with ADHD is they can be very intense in their friendships. Loads of ideas like, let’s do this, let’s do that. That can be a little bit over the top for someone who’s not necessarily looking for that level of intensity.

So the friendship may burn out quickly. And the ADHDer is left thinking, where did I go wrong? I wanted that friendship to continue.

The struggles I mentioned can be very real and continue through a lifetime.

Jane McFadden:
I love the way that you put that. I think that was so eloquent, especially with the ADHD. I was a bit thrown because I was like, there has been a bit of crash and burn. I get it.

Where you don’t listen or you’re too quick. You don’t follow up. You don’t ask how they are.

So then my hubby always says to me that I think that everybody is neurodivergent because we don’t know many neurotypical people.

And he’s always like, see, you think everyone’s neurodivergent. But I say to him, that’s our unit. We work in packs.

And he struggles to believe that because everyone he’s friends with seems to be neurodivergent. So I was just wondering why that is.

Tony Atwood:
Well, in friendships, you’re looking for like-minded individuals — similar values, similar interests, etc. You’re looking for a sense of validation in who you are.

But also, if you’re in a group, you’re safer, especially for bullying and teasing if you’re in a group. But it also means, not just safety, but in terms of achievement, you can do more, learn more, and it can be more fun.

So friendships are often about finding someone of like mind, interests and experiences.

We often find autistic individuals and ADHD individuals at school find each other. I don’t know how they do it, but they spot each other.

And when they do, they suddenly realize, this is somebody who’s a bit different, but like me. And that can be a very positive experience.

So you’re going to find a congregation of like-minded people.

Jane McFadden:
I love that. That is so funny. My hubby and I have got an ongoing joke that neurotypical people are boring.

So whenever he meets someone that’s boring, he always says, oh, they’re probably one of those typical ones. I don’t know what’s wrong with them. They’re just a bit boring.

And I’m like, yeah, well, who knows. He goes, I just like a bit more excitement, you know, a bit more something to say.

And I was like, yeah, the ADHD, that’s what you like.

Tony Atwood:
Exactly.

Jane McFadden:
Okay. So with kids, and a lot of us ADHD mums have got children who also have ADHD amongst other things as well, what are some of the typical struggles that you see in friendships with children?

Michelle Garnett:
One of the main things we see with kids with ADHD is impulse control issues. They’re often very socially motivated. They want friends.

Some can actually make — and I’ve found a pattern with ADHD kids — they can make a friend quickly. But keeping one is harder. The friendship burns out quickly.

The ADHD child is often looking for that dopamine hit, just as you said with your husband — looking for that exciting person who’s also going to have amazing creativity, lots of ideas, take some risks, have fun together.

So they can find each other in the playground. It’s heaven.

And later, as adults, ADHDers will say, as I look back, all my friends at school have now been diagnosed with ADHD. They do find each other.

But the struggle is that, of course, that’s the minority — about 10% of kids will be ADHD. So they find each other, but the other kids, the ones that don’t get it, may not understand the impulsivity — being interrupted, not waiting to learn the rules of the game, just wanting to play their way.

They might not understand that there’s turn-taking needed or reciprocity in play. If the child isn’t doing that, it feels wrong.

Whenever something feels off, weird, or different in human relationships, research from social psychology and sociology shows there’s a turning away. People think, I don’t really like that, I won’t hang out with them.

That can really interrupt friendships for our ADHDers.

Similarly with autism, because of the difficulty of understanding other people’s perspectives, and how fast social interaction moves — reading the cues, inferring motivation, expectation, knowing the social context — that’s not intuitive.

The neurocircuitry is wired for different things like systemizing and sensory exploration. So the child can be lost in that non-social world.

There’s a disconnect that’s felt on both sides. And now we know our autistic kids at school, when they are trying to make friends, they’re often using neurotypical social skills.

There’s a problem from the other side as well. It’s called the double empathy problem. Neurotypical kids aren’t reading the autistic or ADHD kids either. So there’s miscommunication on both sides.

That leads to misunderstandings, and the friendship falters and fails. It is difficult. It’s far more difficult.

We’ve both seen over time how hard it is for kids in primary school and teenage years to form good friendships, to feel included, to feel part of the group, and to find their place in the community. It’s a real struggle.

Jane McFadden:
Yeah, I love that. And I think that I usually try and pick a school that’s a little neurodiverse.

Because if the school has a policy that they don’t allow diagnosed children or whatever it is, I don’t want my children just being the only neurodivergent child there. Because you’re right, that communication gap could be a real problem.

Michelle Garnett:
Yeah, absolutely. It’s so nice to hear that.

The schools I’ve seen doing really well with our neurodivergent kids are welcoming. The doors are open. They’re not scared of it. They’re inclusive.

The kids feel that culture. They feel the atmosphere.

And as you know, then there’s more opportunity for connection and friendship because of what we’re talking about — the like-mindedness.

Jane McFadden:
Oh, absolutely. So then moving into adulthood, what would be the typical struggles you’d see in friendship there? Is it a continuation or something different?

Tony Atwood:
Yes, indeed. It’s a continuation.

One of the things Michelle mentioned can occur in adults too. That is the intensity — of social media contact or meeting up. It’s either too much or too little.

The friend may say, you haven’t contacted me for three months. I thought you’d ended the friendship.

The ADHDer or autistic person says, no, no, I was just distracted by other things. So it can be out of sight, out of mind.

Another issue in adulthood is vulnerability and gullibility. People can be taken advantage of financially or emotionally because of a good heart.

They may suddenly realize the friendship isn’t balanced — I’m doing a lot of the work here. They’re taking advantage of me. I’m not getting a fair return.

Another dimension is bluntness. ADHD and autistic people can be very blunt, saying exactly what they think.

So when a friend asks, do I look fat in this? and the person replies, yes, you are, you’re obese, it may be true, but the way it’s said can cause offense.

Another thing we’ve noticed, particularly with autism, is having strong beliefs or friendship rules. If you break one, the friendship may be completely over.

The friend might think, all I said was I wanted to vote for Donald Trump. Why would that end the friendship? But for the autistic person, that’s a cardinal sin.

The final dimension is fear of rejection — rejection sensitivity.

That can mean needing constant reassurance. Misinterpreting no contact as rejection. Believing they don’t want to be with me anymore.

Jane McFadden:
Would they sometimes self-sabotage then? Like, I think the friendship might be ending, so I’ll end it first — to avoid rejection?

Tony Atwood:
Yes. That can happen. They might think, I’m going to be in charge at the end, or I’ll test you to see if you’re really a genuine friend.

Because they’re trying to process this cognitively, not intuitively, their approach can be misunderstood by the friend.

Jane McFadden:
Got it. Okay, got it.

Jane McFadden:
So then if we fast forward into what we can do — because I think we all see the problems play out in our homes, and it’s heartbreaking when your child’s left out a number of times — what are some of the things that we can do to build skills with our children?

Michelle Garnett:
Great question. And it’s nuanced.

For little kids, all children need some guidance socially. We don’t come into the world socialized, and our frontal lobes take time to develop for reading people and inferring motivation.

Allowing for that growth is important.

Yes, a child can benefit from social skills training — learning the code, gaining confidence, having more success. That’s a great outcome.

But there’s a risk too. They may be taught that their way is wrong and the other way is right. That they always have to adapt without validation that their way also has value.

We’ve seen that children who become very well socialized to the neurotypical way of doing things can still struggle as adults. They may say, I learned the code, but I’m lonely, I’m anxious, I’m depressed. I don’t feel like my authentic self.

So we need balance.

In primary years, yes, help kids understand social situations. But also introduce ADHD and autism as everyday language.

Research shows that a positive identity with autism and ADHD is very helpful for authentic self-realization in teenage and adult years. It’s easier to accept when you’re young.

So if a child grows up saying, yeah, I’m autistic. These are my strengths, these are my struggles, that’s powerful.

The goal is to strike balance: you’re amazing, you’re autistic/ADHD. These are your strengths, these are your challenges.

And then work with the child: what do you want to do socially? Do you want to join a soccer game? Or just have one friend to sit in the library with?

When we get to teenage years, the waters get choppy. Social awareness grows, hormones come in, anxiety rises. If a diagnosis is made then, it’s often the last thing they want to hear.

They just want to fit in.

So here we need sensitivity. We may not achieve a positive autistic/ADHD identity yet, because stigma may already be internalized. But we can still validate who they are.

We guide them towards becoming their authentic self, supporting both strengths and challenges.

If they want to learn neurotypical social codes, there are many resources and strategies. But what we’re really doing is helping them navigate life as a neuro-minority.

The analogy we use is moving to Japan.

If you’re Australian and move to Japan, you’ll probably need to learn Japanese, the customs, the culture — if you want a job and friends. But you never stop being Australian.

That’s what it’s like being autistic or ADHD. You may need skills to navigate neurotypical culture, but you don’t stop being you.

Jane McFadden:
That makes sense. It’s kind of like when you go to the UK, and then you end up hanging around with all the Australians. And you’re like, how did we all find each other?

That’s the autistic people finding each other in Japan.

Okay, so for people who are late diagnosed and still struggling with friendships, what are some strategies they can try?

Tony Atwood:
One advantage of school is you’re in close proximity with potential friends. As an adult, if you’re unemployed, opportunities are fewer.

One way adults make friends is through work. So employment can help.

Other avenues are hobbies and interests, further education, or groups of shared belief — maybe a church, or a cause like environmentalism.

Some friendships form around collections or activities. People restoring cars, clocks, antiques — the focus is shared passion, not small talk.

But adults may also need a friendship mentor — someone to help identify suspicious friendships, those with ulterior motives. Someone to help with conflict, compromise, and seeing the other perspective.

That could be a parent, a partner, or another trusted friend.

Jane McFadden:
Oh, that makes sense. That makes sense completely.

I suppose one of the mum things people do now is they’ll send you screenshots of a conversation they’ve had with a sibling or family member. They’ll say, is this offensive, or is it just me?

It’s that need for someone to bounce off, to check whether your reaction is valid.

Tony Atwood:
Yes. It needs to be someone you trust. Someone objective, not overly critical or dismissive. Someone who can give constructive ideas.

That’s what a mentor does.

Jane McFadden:
Yeah, okay. Okay, great.

I suppose the normative way of parenting is expecting your child to play with friends at lunch, recess, and maybe have a playdate or sport.

But what if you have a child who doesn’t want to play sport, doesn’t want to play with anyone, prefers to go to the library or do crosswords alone? Should we be encouraging them to socialise more?

Michelle Garnett:
I think if this is the child’s inclination — and it’s coming from neurodivergence, not social anxiety or depression — then absolutely respect their natural inclinations.

Especially if they’re in mainstream school, where there are no real sensory or social breaks.

Neurotypical kids love recess because it’s a break from academics. But for autistic and ADHD kids, unstructured time can feel loud, intense, unsafe.

They need a true break. The library is perfect.

So I’d encourage and validate that. I’d say, good on you for listening to your needs. That break means more energy for the afternoon.

And remember, you’ll never have to be that social again as you are at school — six or seven hours a day, with all the teachers, classmates, admin staff. It’s relentless.

So honor the breaks. Neurodivergent kids need them.

That also applies after school. If they’re overloaded socially, they’ll struggle to manage the rest of life. The wheels can fall off.

So I’d allow solitude and recharge time. Reduce playdate expectations. Maybe one-on-one, maybe once a term — whatever works.

Tony Atwood:
Michelle and I use the phrase: this person is alone, but not necessarily lonely.

Jane McFadden:
Oh, I love that. My daughter, who’s eight and a half, is a great example. She’ll say, I need to have a day off in the next two weeks. She sounds like she’s 25.

I’ll say, okay, let’s plan it, because if you spring it on me in the morning, it’s hard. But if you let me know, we’ll make it work.

Michelle Garnett:
Brilliant. That’s wonderful.

I really agree with mental health days for neurodivergent kids in mainstream schools.

And I love how you’re encouraging your daughter to listen to her body. That’s a life skill. Adults need it too, or they risk burnout.

So many issues we see in therapy come from not listening to the body, not taking breaks, not recharging.

Jane McFadden:
Oh, absolutely. But as a mum it’s tempting to say, oh, you should have played. Because you want them to have experiences.

It’s been a challenge to accept the library, leaving early, or saying no. But it’s her choice.

Anyway, we’ll finish that up.

Michelle and Tony have a number of courses on friendships. I know you’ve got the primary school friendship workshop that I’ve done. Do you have a teen one?

Michelle Garnett:
Yes, indeed we do. We have a high school friendship one. That’s tricky.

Jane McFadden:
I don’t have high school aged kids, but I kind of want to do that one just to know. Okay, well, that’s another one to put on the list.

Thank you so much. If anyone would like to check out more on friendships, ADHD, autism, all the information is on the website.

Thank you so much for your time, Michelle and Tony. I really appreciate it.

Tony Atwood:
It’s been a delight to pass on our experiential wisdom. Thank you for hosting this, Jane. It’s been a pleasure.

Michelle Garnett:
Thanks a lot.

Jane McFadden:
Not a worry. The key message here is you are not alone. Thank you for listening.

If you enjoyed this episode, follow us on Instagram or head over and join our amazing ADHD Mums podcast Facebook community. Everything you do matters and helps to spread the word about what neurodiversity in females looks like.