Episode 4- Sibling Peace: Transform Rivalry into Relationship Building with Gen Muir

Jane McFadden:

Welcome to the ADHD Mums podcast, a safe place for everyday Australian mums to discuss their struggles with ADHD, motherhood and life.

Hello and welcome to the next episode of ADHD Mums. My husband and I have been counting down the days that we can speak to Gen Muir because of some of the fighting that we have in our house.

If you don’t know who Gen Muir is, Gen Muir is the mum of four boys. She’s a social worker and leading parenting educator who has worked with more than 40,000 parents privately and also through her role as an obstetric social worker at the Mater Hospital in Sydney. Gen Muir helps families face to face and via online workshops as well through her 110,000 social media followers via Instagram, Facebook and TikTok.

She’s also the co-host of Beyond the with Amy Gerard, who I rave about Amy constantly. She’s also the author of a newly released parenting Bible, Little People, Big Feelings via Pan Macmillan Australia. So welcome to you, Gen Muir.

Gen Muir:

Thank you so much for having me. I’ve been excited too. Yeah, this is going to be great.

Jane McFadden:

So we have just come finished up the school holidays here in Queensland and the sibling fighting has definitely impacted our levels of happiness to say the least. We just kick off straight away.

So Gen Muir, first up elephant in the room, people on this podcast will be thinking that neurodivergent children are so much more harder than neurotypical ones. I was wondering, do you think they’re harder? What are the differences?

Gen Muir:

A hundred percent. I think they’re harder. And one of my aims when I wrote my book was really not just delivering a Bible that could help parents of neurotypical children, but something that would assist parents of neurodivergent children.

And the feedback that I’ve had so far that really makes the difference to me is when parents write to me and say, I have three kids, one with ADHD, one with autism and other compounding factors. And it’s the first time I felt seen and it’s working. And I’m like, for me, that was success.

The way that I would describe it is that parents of neurodivergent children, they need what I’m offering around attachment because it’s a human need. The stuff that I’m helping parents with, it’s not just neurotypical kids. It’s not neurodivergent kids. It’s all of us need this stuff.

But for our kids that have neurodivergence or even just kids that struggle with sensory sensitivities or just developmentally due to physical illnesses in the early years are developing at different rates, those kids are going to be harder to parent. They’re going to struggle with emotions and regulation.

And that’s because of the way that the body develops. And if you will allow me to, I’d love to explain a little bit about that because I think it could be really helpful.

Gen Muir:

So I might have someone come to me with a child, like it might be with neurodivergence, it might not be, it might be just a really, sometimes we talk about deep feeling or highly sensitive kids, but that child may be struggling more than others with regulating through transitions, with sibling fighting, with hoping with disappointment, with settling at night, the way that we form.

And sometimes like through the questions that I’ll ask, I’ll find out whether it is that their brain is working differently or whether sometimes a physical thing happened in the early years. So if we have a baby that goes in and out of surgery for the first two, three, four years of their life with lots of ear, nose and throat stuff going on, not only will their hearing be impacted, but physically that baby may be behind in terms of the way the body develops.

So the way it develops is the first thing that has to develop is that proprioceptive system. So the way that we feel in space and obviously in neurodivergent kids, that’s often, not always, but often going to be impacted.

The next thing that comes on after that is our left-right body coordination, how we move our body through space, our sense of space in the world. And that’s where our proprioceptive system. And again, neurodivergent kids are going to be impacted by that and some other kids as well.

Then on top of that, then we do speech, then we do emotional and regulation, and then we’re ready to learn. So I always like to think of it like that because whether or not there’s a diagnosis or what that diagnosis is, what we know is that probably what we’re talking about is that stuff down the bottom took longer or is developing in different ways.

And therefore those regulation skills, they’re not going to be at the same place as a four-year-old that developed without any of those challenges. So that four-year-old is probably sitting there ready to learn, ready to make instructions. They probably respond to some of my techniques about naming a feeling.

That kid’s going to say, oh, thank you, mommy. And it’s going to go really well. But if our child has more going on at those bottom levels, it’s simply that development takes time. It develops differently in different humans. And I like to have that whole picture feel when I’m working with parents.

Jane McFadden:

Oh, wow. That was amazing. I could just hear in your podcast episodes that you really did have experience with neurodivergence.

There’s been many parenting episodes I’ve listened to in many different podcasts that I’m sure they’re great. But when I’m listening to it, I’m like, they’ve actually probably got sensory issues or they clearly don’t have any emotional regulation or that kid really needs to see an OT.

And I love the way that you encompass that whole child rather than let’s push through and make them sit at the table until they’ve finished eating. Maybe also to that parent who’s done their voicemail in that maybe you need to see an OT and maybe you could try this today.

So yeah, I think it’s great because sometimes I think as mothers of neurodivergent kids, it can feel like a bit of a defense or a bit of a barrier when you sometimes get those looks in the shops where, oh, my parents would never have tolerated.

I suppose there’s a whole thing around bad behavior and I’m air quoting bad behavior where it’s like they just need more discipline, you’re catering to them too much. When you look at it from their point of view, it’s not necessarily the case at all.

What do you think around the awareness when you’re parenting to know whether you’re dealing with neurodivergent children or not? Because I think that can be a barrier. For example, me spending 90 minutes trying to get my daughter to put on socks and shoes for school, not knowing that there was a sensory issue.

Very different parenting style and I regret that year. I feel really bad about that now because I thought I’d had to push her harder. And now when I see it, I definitely react differently because I’m aware. How do you think that plays out in terms of parenting and knowing what to do?

Gen Muir:

My personal mantra when it came to me parenting my boys was like, I’m really open to help. If something is feeling like it’s not working, my personality style in terms of just my own parenting has been, I want help with that.

If I had trouble feeding, I’m like, I want a lactation consultant. I want some help with that. If my child was struggling with speech or development or regulation, or it was taking an hour and a half to put the shoes on, I guess the thing I would say to parents who are wondering, is this me? And this is right. I’m wondering with all of my kids, is there more going on here? And I think that’s a really normal thing to ask that question.

But I guess how we know when we’re at the point of asking for help or putting a hand up and checking something out, is this working for me? Is it working for my child? And if you’re hitting a point, like for me that hour and a half, I don’t think that was working for you or her.

And so I feel like if we can encourage parents that like, yes, parenting is hard. Yes, kids are emotional, but if it doesn’t feel right, it’s so good to check it out. And the worst thing that could happen is you take your child to an OT and the OT says, I don’t know why you’re here.

I actually believe all kids could benefit from OT. I believe that OTs are a way for us that could prevent a lot of our kids from winding up in a psychologist’s office at 13 or 16. I really believe that OTs are teaching us as parents how to do a lot of what we need to do in terms of understanding that sensory world.

One of the things that neurodivergent kids have in common with the average toddler is that the average toddler struggles to manage their body in space and is learning about proprioception and emotional regulation. And so the average toddler, all parents get that.

The only thing is for a parent with a neurodivergent child, it’s bigger, it’s longer, and you just burn out because long beyond the stage that all the other kids outgrew those behaviours, you’re still dealing with it. And that’s what I think is exhausting, is that your child at five, when all the other kids have settled or at seven or nine, is still struggling with the socks or with anything.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree.

I love the fact that you point people to OTs because yeah, they can be brilliant. And if they point you in a direction that leads to an answer, even if it’s just a nudge, they don’t have the answer, but they just nudge you that this is probably developmentally not appropriate, then you could end up at a clinical psych’s office or a paediatrician and a year later, and that’s just the nudge that you needed. Totally.

Jane McFadden:

Back onto sibling rivalry. One of the reasons that I got you on the podcast was that ADHD, we do know that there’s standard things that kind of like lack of impulse control or inattention, emotional regulation and hyperactivity.

If you look at that as a time of recipe and then you’ve got, let’s say three kids, two kids, maybe you’ve got adults in there as well. Everyone’s in the mix and they’re possibly saying things or flying off the handle and running off. It can be a really chaotic environment to be in.

I believe that my children are probably more lack of impulse control and hyperactive than inattentive in my opinion. So they do have a habit of touching each other more so than others and getting more angry than a neurotypical child would do.

My eight-year-old and six-year-old, I had all of my kids close together with the hope that they would create relationships, be friends, which I think honestly I should have prioritised my body and had them further apart because they’re not really very friendly with each other anyway.

But the eight-year-old and the six-year-old, so Gigi and Gus particularly don’t like each other. It’s not a phase. They’ve hated each other for years and they physically fight down to the death as do my boys constantly.

We just went over for Easter on a break and I said to my husband at the end of one of the days, if Gigi and Gus could just be civil, I think this could have been an okay holiday. But the fact you have to separate constantly, they scream at each other constantly but we’re at a point where we just don’t know what to do.

Gen Muir:

Yeah, okay. So much I want to say here. I don’t even know where to begin but I’m going to begin.

So first of all, I just want to touch on a couple of things you said around their diagnoses and that impulsivity as well as the touching each other. So there’s a couple of things there and you would probably know as well as I know that what we’re seeing underlying those diagnoses is that touching each other is seeking out.

So all of us are on a spectrum as humans, as you know Amy Gerard touches all her friends’ hair. Your kids are seeking out that proprioceptive input by touching which there is an element there that there is a skill that we do learn on an OT’s office or floor of emotionally coaching. I can see you want to touch. Can we get that input another way and not your sibling?

Then we’ve got the fact that they’re impulsive which kids go well when they can and looking back to what we said earlier, that development, they’re just not there. That ability to regulate that emotion and choose a different option other than hitting their sibling or lashing out is not available to them yet because of the way their brains are developing and still developing and continuing to develop and they’re going to get there.

So we’ve got these kids with extra challenges in your situation and that makes it so much harder and I just want to acknowledge that and it probably does feel like you’re failing and it probably feels like they hate each other. I heard you say that.

Jane McFadden:

They do.

Gen Muir:

I don’t believe they do. I am backing this relationship. I don’t think we can call it yet. There are two reasons why.

One, they’ve got all these challenges that are getting in the way of them going well. If these kids didn’t have challenges it’s like why would we be difficult by choice? We don’t choose to be difficult. We don’t choose to have a difficult relationship with the sibling. That’s not a good choice for anyone. So I don’t believe they choose that. I believe there’s no option in their case.

And so first of all so hard on you but second of all that compassion for them which is like you guys struggle so much to regulate and because they’ve both got challenges right it just means it’s a perfect storm.

There’s that going on and knowing that doesn’t mean it makes it any easier for you but it does help you to say that may not be their relationship yet set in stone. These are kids with challenges that mean their ability to regulate into a smooth sibling relationship is probably behind that and other kids. So they might get there. They may not. We don’t all get on with our siblings.

But let’s go back to attachment. Out of any of this I want to just talk about attachment. So it is normal for siblings to compete for connection with their primary caregivers. We are fully reliant onto two primary caregivers for 25 years right and the way that we develop our ability to handle conflict and negotiation which your kids are going to struggle with more than others because of the impulse control issues right is through sibling fighting.

So maybe what they’re doing is in part what they need to develop themselves but also it makes so much sense that they want to compete for the connection and attachment with you.

Gen Muir:

If I can, I want to tell a story.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah, go for it.

Gen Muir:

My eldest I think in hindsight and if you’ve read my book you would know he really struggled when that second baby came along who had reflux and a lot physical complications for a couple of years and in hindsight what I wish I’d known was that he was really competing for connection and attention and anything you could get with this baby which makes so much sense from a developmental level but this carried on into their relationship and I would see him constantly look for any opportunity.

My second son would say the sky is blue and my older son would say no it’s red like you’re wrong like any chance. He is also quite impulsive, struggles with controlling his body at times and all of that. I’ve really watched this and really tore my hair out how can I create a better sibling relationship.

I’ve tried all the wrong things that I would not recommend. I’ve tried time out. I’ve tried lecturing my child on how it’s going to be his best friend in time and he should be nice. I’ve tried absolutely everything.

And this one time that really stands out to me it was quite a few years ago but we were away down south and I went for a bike ride. I said to my oldest son the one thing you’ve got to do is keep your brother with you with the group and my youngest son comes home crying within 10 minutes so he got ditched by my older son. I was ropeable, the one thing I expected blah blah blah.

I went in to say the rules and I told you and I just thought this isn’t working this isn’t working this is just not changing anything and if kids are ultimately always seeking connection and to be seen and to be heard how do I do this differently.

So I went in and I just said okay you’re a good kid and you don’t want to get this wrong so I’m wondering what happened to have you lose him from the group even though you knew that was important and he told me a bit more about how my youngest son was deliberately stirring and going slowly and holding him back from the wider social group.

And instead of just saying yeah but here’s the logic I just said that must have been really wrong and I would have hated that if I was the eldest and I felt responsible for someone that was dragging down the group and I know how much you want to join me with the other kids and that must have been really frustrating and scary for you.

And I said you know what you don’t need to look after him every day how about just a couple of times this week and then other I’ll let you have some time on your own. And you know what happened? For the first time ever I saw him actively invite the younger brother out day after day after day following that empathy.

And I tell you that because I’ve seen it time and time again I still fall into the trap of going in to defuse a fight and going you’re in the wrong I’ve told you guys we do it right but if we can go in neutrally and know that all kids go well when they can, even that kid that has done that wrong thing that was not within your values or they’ve hit or they’ve hurt, if we can always assume they’re seeking connection and they’re doing the best they can then we come in and go whoa guys I’m wondering what’s happening, I’m wondering how we can sort that out.

Now I’m on their team, now I’m in a completely different position to support them and to encourage them to get along.

But I truly believe if you have one child particularly that is the protagonist that’s constantly unpicking another the only way through is empathy first. Yes we can coach and say this is what I’m expecting of you, but that empathy first for it must be.

Gen Muir:

And sometimes it’s about, especially when you’ve got a vigilant older sibling that maybe for anyone listening, especially for this older sibling to a kid that does have a diagnosis and so therefore they do go well and they’re constantly feeling a bit hyper vigilant, almost parent this child that doesn’t go well and make up for the fact that they’re harder.

And we want to just say hey, I’m the parent, leave it to me and all of that stuff. But if we can just stop and say it must be exhausting trying to feel like you go so well and your younger sibling does not and you must think you’re in the car, your shoes are on and he’s your sibling and we’re still putting their socks on for an hour and a half. That must be hard.

And if we can come in, I truly believe where they feel seen in their role in just trying to find their place in their connection with us, then everything goes better. And then it is about the way we diffuse fights. We can lower shame around that. There are ways we can make a difference in sibling fighting, there are skills we can learn in coaching, which is all covered in my book of course.

But that’s been my passion because I don’t think there’s a manual for that. But also I would just love to reassure anyone listening that sibling fighting is so healthy and normal and we cannot determine how those kids are going to go yet. They don’t hate each other yet. I would say that to anyone out there right now. We just don’t know that yet because they don’t know that yet. Their brain is not fully formed till 25. So we’ve got that long to not shape it but trust they’ve got it.

I think if we can trust they’re good kids, they’re going to work this out in their own way, that relationships unfold over time, I reckon that’s our best bet.

Jane McFadden:

That completely spun me out. That was pretty amazing. I’m going to say I was trying to keep my expectations low because I don’t want to expect that Gen Muir’s going to fix my problems that I’ve had for a long time in the first 15 minutes.

That whole thing is — would possibly be it. Because it’s a similar thing, like it’s sky’s blue, one will say it’s green. They actively will try not to get along it seems to me. But then there’s elements to what you’ve said where my daughter is the eldest of two little boys and she says constantly that they ruin her life.

And when she says that sometimes I’m in the shower and I think that seems pretty accurate because they are a lot of work. And in the past thought it was my middle son and he is an antagonist, that’s his personality, he does like to stir the pot. But I’ve noticed that when he actively tries to get on with her — and he does — so you are right, there’s not pure hatred, it’s elements of this and behavior that looks like hatred. But you’re right, it’s not complete hatred yet.

He will attempt to get on with her and I in the past have really pinpointed, I thought it was him. But as he’s improved, I’ve noticed that she actively doesn’t want to get on with him it seems. And then I’ve spoken to her about it but I think I haven’t spoken to her about it in the way that you spoke about, in terms of empathy and actually how hard that would be to her.

Because it wouldn’t be far off being me because it’s like everything you start they ruin. She’s very into art, they’ll go past and push a paint off the table. They would be aggravating. I’m looking at it from her perspective now and I’m like, I see why she wants to get the jabs in when she can. It’s like payback almost.

And my family on both sides, my husband and I, we do like to hold a grudge. I have noticed actually my kids are not violent, they don’t hit other kids, that’s not the way they present. But I did notice it in Hindi when my middle son was about three, they came to us and said it’s not a problem yet but just letting you know by having a lot of hitting from him to kids unprovoked, which I was actually not aware of that.

And what they figured out was that he was actually doing it hours later. So they’d wrong him in the morning and that he’d find the right time that he’d really go them. And it seems to be a bit of a genetic thing because we do like to hold a grudge.

Gen Muir:

Another way to think about that, like what you just said with your son, because I think many parents would relate to the kid that suddenly out of nowhere just hits the baby at 5 p.m. and you’re like this has come from nowhere.

But what we want to think about it is again that kids always want to go well. It’s not their first choice to not go well. And again, if kids are struggling because they’re three or because there’s more going on at a sensory level or because they’re processing something emotional or because they’re neurodivergent, any of those reasons that they’re just processing more, you’ve got to think that like just look at my poppy cup here, just imagine they’re waking up every day they’re already half that full.

And then when that kid in daycare hit your son earlier in the morning, he got to there and then he’s locked our cell over and he got to there. So he’s got no more ability to go well at this point.

And because he’s three and he’s at daycare he’s also processing just being apart from you and everything — speech, language, social stuff. Now it could be a bird went near him, it could be the most minor thing no one spots, and now he’s pushing a kid over.

And yet it may be that it’s retaliation, but it could also be can’t go well through another thing. And so that I would always keep that in mind with our kids is like sometimes the child that just suddenly pushes over the baby, we think oh my goodness am I raising someone destined for prison here because that seems so mean and out of nowhere.

And even for your daughter, I think at times where she suddenly says something that just seems so mean or she picks down that younger brother, maybe it’s like she has tolerated so much through her day already today or through her week and then she can’t go well through another thing.

And I think if we can view that their behavior — or in her case the thing she says — is her way of saying I’m not okay. And our instinct can be for a lot of us, your kid might come up and say you love my brothers more than me or they might say they’ve ruined my life.

And our instinct, and so often we might even say I hear you but you have to love family, it’s not a real hearing them, it’s not real empathy. Because it’s okay I get that they’re hard but they’re your brothers. We haven’t really heard someone if we do that.

Whereas if we stop and go — and this feels really scary to do so I want to acknowledge this can feel really hard at the time — but if you hated your brothers sometimes because it feels like they ruin your life, that would make sense. I think it can be really hard when the things you care about get knocked over and ruined.

That would be really frustrating and it might make you feel like your needs matter less than them sometimes even. I would really understand if that made you feel hungry or sad. And then we hang there in this really uncomfortable space, which for us as parents feels terrifying because we’re worried that what if we make this worse? What if we’re naming the unnameable? What if that makes the hate real? Or we just named it and now she hates them.

That greatest fear we have, that our kids will never get along. But what I really believe happens is we’ve now named it, we’re now on our child’s team, we’re sitting alongside them with our arm next to them in a metaphorical sense and a physical sense saying I believe in you and that feeling makes sense.

We’ve named it, therefore we’ve now got the frontal lobe that can latch on top of that and make sense of it. We go so much better when we’re not alone. And for our kids there’s a lot of shame in feeling I hate my brothers, but it’s a really normal feeling. You get to hate your brothers and love your brothers.

And actually I think we free our kids up to then find that love and connection if we can believe in the love, if we can believe in the best. And I think that’s our job is to carry that hope and belief, you guys are going to get there. It’s normal, this is all normal.

I would be really frustrated too if I was the eldest kid to these two boys that muck your stuff up, I’d bloody hate it. In fact let me tell you a story about when my brother ruined something of mine and oh my gosh I punched him in the stomach and that wasn’t the right thing to do but gosh…

We can hold that belief while also relating. And if we can hang in that discomfort that’s 90% of it.

Gen Muir:

We’ve then got an ability to coach. We can then say look, I get it, so what’s a better way of dealing with your brother than constantly picking him down? What about you come up to me and let me know when you’re just finding like you can’t go well and I’ll give you a cue, I’ll give you the chance to go be in your room away from them and I’ll keep them away. So we’re coming onto our child’s team.

Jane McFadden:

It’s funny because when you’ve said that I have all these clues from what she’s been saying to me that I haven’t been putting together. For example, she said to me she really loves Minecraft but education — she doesn’t like the killing, she just wants to build things. She’s very creative, she’s very arty.

And she said to me, because I’ve got apps and all these parenting stuff on their iPads so they can’t have games all the time and I have to turn it on my phone. This time I blame the timers when I turn it off myself, everyone has their strategy. But she said to me today, I don’t know why you can’t leave Minecraft Education on for me all the time because it’s educational.

And then when I’ve had enough I can go into my room and I can just do education because she said you know that you can trust me on my iPad. And I was thinking I actually do know that I can trust her and I do know that she would just do education especially if she was told.

And now I’m thinking of all these other strategies — yeah if she’s had enough maybe she can go and have that time out. And then maybe she’s communicating.

Gen Muir:

And look, parents would have different rules around iPads in room, but certainly we can find a compromise. There might be her going into your room or somewhere you can keep an eye on her but giving her that ability to have that time out, in the same way as we’ve given neurodivergent kids sometimes a screen to have time out because they too might need that to regulate down after a big day at school.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah, I agree with you saying you don’t want to leave a kid unmonitored with technology but I think if I just keep an eye on the parenting controls and maybe I put her in a different room that’s sectioned off I think that’s a good idea.

Because I have in the last few weeks realized it’s actually her that’s the undercurrent and then I’ve not known what to do about it.

Gen Muir:

It’s, I think, that’s not if you’re not interested. The other one more tip: take her out for a special date one-on-one and tell her in advance how excited you are about it. Take her to the restaurant of her choice.

Jane McFadden:

How old is she?

Gen Muir:

She’s eight?

Jane McFadden:

Going on 16.

Gen Muir:

Take her out one-on-one and write her an invite. I want to go out just you and me for some special time or some mum and your child’s name time and get her to pick where you’re going, choose the activity.

And thank her for being the eldest of the kids in this family. Tell her how you notice how hard she sometimes works to be responsible and get her shoes on when no one else is, or something like that.

Find a way to acknowledge that it’s not always easy to be her in this role. You can do that with all three kids and it is one of the single biggest interventions we can do.

So kids go well when they feel loved. And I really believe when we’re seeing repetitive sibling stuff, where I always want to start is some special time with the protagonist. If I can fill that emotional cup, if you’re feeling so loved — and I’m not saying it’s always the answer, I don’t want parents thinking but I’ve connected and they’re still hitting.

But like sometimes if we just view that as connection-seeking and we just fill that cup to the brim, and while you’re out with you say gosh I love just you and me, isn’t this so nice, just us girls or whatever. And then later that night as you tuck her into bed you say do you know my favorite part of today or all week was that date with you, I loved it, let’s make it a regular thing.

And you might do it once a term. You might write her a little note and leave it under her pillow saying thank you for, I noticed something that you did today and it made such a difference and I’m so appreciative of you for who you are.

Finding ways to just fill her little emotional cup and let her know that you see her, that you both see that she struggles sometimes to be the eldest of these kids and that you get it and it makes sense if she doesn’t always love it but also that you just love time with her.

I reckon that’s one of the single biggest interventions you could do in terms of having behavior go better in your home.

Jane McFadden:

This has just blown my mind because my middle son who is an antagonist, but as I said he’s made improvements — why has he made improvements? Because I’ve done what you said there.

I didn’t know what I was doing, it was just I noticed that he would go well when we were more connected and then I started spending more time with him, taking off into another room and play cards with him for 15 minutes.

10 minutes. 9 to 10 minutes is all it takes. 15 is amazing. But if parents knew that just 10 minutes of concentrated time, it not just fills our child’s sort of emotional needs but it settles their systems.

If they do struggle to regulate their bodies, their proprioceptive systems, just 10 minutes of connection with that primary caregiver makes them feel safe. If we feel safe the amygdala settles, we’re less likely to be impulsive. And if that’s something we struggle with that’s going to be such a great intervention.

Gen Muir:

I do want to say for anyone listening who’s thinking I’ve tried this Gen Muir and my child’s still struggling, of course we still need boundaries. And of course some kids are going to take so much longer to learn and that is so hard.

And that’s why particularly on a podcast where we’re talking about kids that might have additional needs or that are neurodivergent, it’s so important to — and I’m not going to say the word self-care — but looking after you.

And one of the biggest things is what can we ditch and just say that is not going to happen perfectly in this house. We’ve got different expectations of what good enough looks like. At times we’re going to let some stuff slide, we’re going to really try to find that figure I talk about all the time — if we can meet our kids emotional needs, particularly welcoming feelings, around 30% of the time, that’s enough.

And I see modern parents and we’re thinking we need to be doing that 90% or 50% or 100%, and it’s not what kids need. It’s not achievable, at least the burnout. So the biggest thing around our self-care is actually lowering the expectations of what we should be doing as parents and implementing a nice balance of yes modern intuitive connected parenting and also a bit of 80s.

Do you want me to keep flowing with the next section about developmental differences, medication, and sibling challenges, in the same style?

Gen Muir:

We’ve then got an ability to coach. We can then say look, I get it, so what’s a better way of dealing with your brother than constantly picking him down? What about you come up to me and let me know when you’re just finding like you can’t go well and I’ll give you a cue, I’ll give you the chance to go be in your room away from them and I’ll keep them away. So we’re coming onto our child’s team.

Jane McFadden:

It’s funny because when you’ve said that I have all these clues from what she’s been saying to me that I haven’t been putting together. For example, she said to me she really loves Minecraft but education — she doesn’t like the killing, she just wants to build things. She’s very creative, she’s very arty.

And she said to me, because I’ve got apps and all these parenting stuff on their iPads so they can’t have games all the time and I have to turn it on my phone. This time I blame the timers when I turn it off myself, everyone has their strategy. But she said to me today, I don’t know why you can’t leave Minecraft Education on for me all the time because it’s educational.

And then when I’ve had enough I can go into my room and I can just do education because she said you know that you can trust me on my iPad. And I was thinking I actually do know that I can trust her and I do know that she would just do education especially if she was told.

And now I’m thinking of all these other strategies — yeah if she’s had enough maybe she can go and have that time out. And then maybe she’s communicating.

Gen Muir:

And look, parents would have different rules around iPads in room, but certainly we can find a compromise. There might be her going into your room or somewhere you can keep an eye on her but giving her that ability to have that time out, in the same way as we’ve given neurodivergent kids sometimes a screen to have time out because they too might need that to regulate down after a big day at school.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah, I agree with you saying you don’t want to leave a kid unmonitored with technology but I think if I just keep an eye on the parenting controls and maybe I put her in a different room that’s sectioned off I think that’s a good idea.

Because I have in the last few weeks realized it’s actually her that’s the undercurrent and then I’ve not known what to do about it.

Gen Muir:

It’s, I think, that’s not if you’re not interested. The other one more tip: take her out for a special date one-on-one and tell her in advance how excited you are about it. Take her to the restaurant of her choice.

Jane McFadden:

How old is she?

Gen Muir:

She’s eight?

Jane McFadden:

Going on 16.

Gen Muir:

Take her out one-on-one and write her an invite. I want to go out just you and me for some special time or some mum and your child’s name time and get her to pick where you’re going, choose the activity.

And thank her for being the eldest of the kids in this family. Tell her how you notice how hard she sometimes works to be responsible and get her shoes on when no one else is, or something like that.

Find a way to acknowledge that it’s not always easy to be her in this role. You can do that with all three kids and it is one of the single biggest interventions we can do.

So kids go well when they feel loved. And I really believe when we’re seeing repetitive sibling stuff, where I always want to start is some special time with the protagonist. If I can fill that emotional cup, if you’re feeling so loved — and I’m not saying it’s always the answer, I don’t want parents thinking but I’ve connected and they’re still hitting.

But like sometimes if we just view that as connection-seeking and we just fill that cup to the brim, and while you’re out with you say gosh I love just you and me, isn’t this so nice, just us girls or whatever. And then later that night as you tuck her into bed you say do you know my favorite part of today or all week was that date with you, I loved it, let’s make it a regular thing.

And you might do it once a term. You might write her a little note and leave it under her pillow saying thank you for, I noticed something that you did today and it made such a difference and I’m so appreciative of you for who you are.

Finding ways to just fill her little emotional cup and let her know that you see her, that you both see that she struggles sometimes to be the eldest of these kids and that you get it and it makes sense if she doesn’t always love it but also that you just love time with her.

I reckon that’s one of the single biggest interventions you could do in terms of having behavior go better in your home.

Jane McFadden:

This has just blown my mind because my middle son who is an antagonist, but as I said he’s made improvements — why has he made improvements? Because I’ve done what you said there.

I didn’t know what I was doing, it was just I noticed that he would go well when we were more connected and then I started spending more time with him, taking off into another room and play cards with him for 15 minutes.

10 minutes. 9 to 10 minutes is all it takes. 15 is amazing. But if parents knew that just 10 minutes of concentrated time, it not just fills our child’s sort of emotional needs but it settles their systems.

If they do struggle to regulate their bodies, their proprioceptive systems, just 10 minutes of connection with that primary caregiver makes them feel safe. If we feel safe the amygdala settles, we’re less likely to be impulsive. And if that’s something we struggle with that’s going to be such a great intervention.

Gen Muir:

I do want to say for anyone listening who’s thinking I’ve tried this Gen Muir and my child’s still struggling, of course we still need boundaries. And of course some kids are going to take so much longer to learn and that is so hard.

And that’s why particularly on a podcast where we’re talking about kids that might have additional needs or that are neurodivergent, it’s so important to — and I’m not going to say the word self-care — but looking after you.

And one of the biggest things is what can we ditch and just say that is not going to happen perfectly in this house. We’ve got different expectations of what good enough looks like. At times we’re going to let some stuff slide, we’re going to really try to find that figure I talk about all the time — if we can meet our kids emotional needs, particularly welcoming feelings, around 30% of the time, that’s enough.

And I see modern parents and we’re thinking we need to be doing that 90% or 50% or 100%, and it’s not what kids need. It’s not achievable, at least the burnout. So the biggest thing around our self-care is actually lowering the expectations of what we should be doing as parents and implementing a nice balance of yes modern intuitive connected parenting and also a bit of 80s.

Jane McFadden:

Oh absolutely. I think you’ve made a good point though because developmentally he’s nearly seven, we’ve been — he’s ready one thing for three years. He started medication which works, we’ve had a lot of changes on my end with mindset and lots of little things over a long period to get these results. It’s not an instant fix, I wish it was.

I always worry about parents, especially parents struggling with big behaviors, impulsivity, hitting, hurting, all of that stuff, and I’ll be — I’m connecting and I’m like I know you are, of course. And so they’re trying. But sometimes it is developmental, your child cannot go better right now.

And like you say, all those things you’ve done and all those things we do, or development takes time. And so until then sometimes with hitting we have to stop them. We are that frontal lobe, we’re literally stepping in and saying I can’t let you hit. And we’re being that buffer between them and the sibling because that’s a safety risk and we’re doing that.

And that will feel exhausting if your child has additional stuff going on because it will go on much longer. But then for those kids where their brains are much more settled and they’ve been able to move up to that next level of development and they’re ready to regulate their emotions and listen, and that can feel really frustrating because you feel amazing when you’ve got a kid that developed.

One of my four kids done kindy and boys are behind girls anyway right, and one of my four kids is the only one that I put in kindy and I actually just walked away going job done, kid is good to go, he’s gonna sit on a chair and he’s gonna be ready to learn. And it’s such a great feeling, you feel amazing.

And he won the end-of-year best learner award and that almost upsets me that he’s the one that won because he is the kid that was already going well. He was the kid that had nothing else that was holding him back as a little five-year-old boy from being able to sit on a chair and learn.

And I just think it’s really hard for the parents of other kids and little boys, it’s a lot of them, that are not ready to learn at five. And they’re sitting on chairs and they’re falling off those chairs and it’s so much harder.

Gen Muir:

But yeah, yeah I totally agree.

Jane McFadden:

People generally love playing cards, board games with their kids. It’s a way of connecting. Up here on the Sunshine Coast I do it very often because it’s just so hot all the time and it’s something you can do inside, shaded, in any place in the world. You can go on a holiday, take cards.

We’re a highly competitive family, we love to play cards. My kids are obsessed with it. Card games are explosive in our house, it’s like the most draining experience but also they love it and you want to connect with them.

I find it difficult just doing imaginary play like Barbies and stuff, so for me a card game is a bit more like something’s happening. I was wondering if you had any tips on neurodivergent kids or any family attempting to play a game to spend time together. Is it just going to be a dog’s breakfast every time or are there some things we can do to make it slightly better?

Gen Muir:

I think you can help if you have core rules in your house. So around our boundaries for our kids that are there to keep them safe, if you’ve got a couple of core rules that are simple and we keep them to a bare minimum.

We don’t hit and hurt. We don’t damage our property. And we don’t hurt ourselves might be the three. You might have no name-calling as well. We don’t hit and hurt each other or ourselves, we don’t damage our things and we respect our things, and we don’t call people names.

I’ve got a fourth one: when someone’s not enjoying it or they don’t look okay or they’re saying stop, we check on them. So that’s my four core rules that I raise my kids by.

Now everything else I’m flexible on, but if a core rule is being broken I’m stepping in quite a different way. So if we’re playing a card game and I know that I’ve got this highly competitive family — this is not my family by the way, like I would much prefer to do an outdoor chasing game than play card games, I’m like oh no — but just say.

And this is really normal: kids struggle to win and lose, they struggle to regulate through that, that is so normal. And the fact you practice that with your family, it’s not only connection but it’s actually practice at winning and losing and regulating our emotions, which your kids possibly need more practice at which is why they seek that out, and you guys take that out.

Jane McFadden:

One of the reasons we do it is because we don’t have the best sports in our house in terms of they can be quite negative to other team members. We do it to build up their skills on being a good team member. So yeah, I agree.

Gen Muir:

Yes and some kids do struggle with that. So if we’ve got our core rules in place and then we say look we’re gonna play and I know how hard you guys find it when you’re not the winner or when you get a draw eight or whatever, I get it if that made you feel so angry, but I’m going to remind you of our core family rules that are always there.

So little hurts cannot throw the cards or damage property or call names. And if that happens I’m going to be stepping in and stopping you. So they know in advance.

They’ve got a chance to practice the dysregulation that comes up for them in that game in advance, and I’d be talking them through that before you even get the pack of cards out. I want to play a game but I want to preempt that this can be really hard for kids that are not even quite as verbal as that, but you can just draw like an emoji as basic as that and go sometimes I see you get really mad when we’re playing, you know, and that would make so much sense if you did because I love winning, we love winning and we’re so competitive in our family. Like I get it.

But when we get really mad what are some of the things we can and can’t do? We’re talking about what’s happening here is we’re practicing dysregulation of the disappointment of losing that they feel so strongly about that they find it hard to regulate through prior to the moment.

This allows them a chance to practice it. So imagine what a calm birth course is, it’s literally just practicing what you’re going to do in labor before the event so that it’s less scary at the time. So that when it happens in the moment that disappointment happens your child has had that really recent experience of — so you’ve just got a better chance of them knowing in advance.

It also sets you up for what’s my role here? If one of those core rules gets broken I am stepping in. I can’t let you call your brother a name. I won’t let you guys damage our Uno set and I won’t let you hurt each other would be things I’d be saying.

I love the words ‘I won’t let you.’ Some parent educators don’t like the words, so they soften that up. The reason I like ‘I won’t’ is because our job, and this is what we struggle with, is to step in and assist. So it’s very much I’m here to help, I won’t let you do that.

You can’t say that and be sitting passively. I can’t say I won’t let you throw the cards and be sitting still. I’m going to be moving and stopping them. I can’t let you hit your brother. It’s not a boundary unless I’m stopping my child. It’s not a choice, it’s dysregulation, and it’s best it’s a meltdown essentially. So I need to be stepping in helping them in that moment.

So the way we then talk them through in the moment, we set and hold that boundary, and then afterwards we’ve got a third opportunity to improve the card game scenario with emotional coaching.

That can only happen when we’re calm, we’re connected, that’s later, that’s at night, that’s the next day, that’s side by side as you shoot hoops or drive in the car. And you say just thinking back on that card game yesterday, we love cards but we can’t play when your behavior breaks the core rules.

I get the annoyance that your brother, or losing, or the disappointment that happened and I really understand that. But the core rule is we can’t hit and if we hit it ruined the game, it didn’t go well. So what could we do next time to help you when you feel that building up in your body?

So that’s the end of step three, and then we almost go straight back to step one before the next card game, pre-game coaching session. We say again, remember guys. And we don’t shame or go back to remember if this happens I’ll take the cards away and there’ll be punishments. It’s more like I’m on your team, we all want to go well, and it makes sense to feel emotional about this.

But if we — the consequence will you and then it ruins the game, right?

Does that make sense?

Jane McFadden:

Yeah it does. I was actually just reflecting on personal opinion here, how important I personally think it is — I’m not a medical professional — around getting diagnosed and if you’re open to taking medication, medicating as a mother.

Because what you spoke about I think is brilliant. I just went into a bit of a reflection thinking 18 months ago I wouldn’t have been able to do that because I wouldn’t have had the patience, I wouldn’t have had the emotional regulation.

And I’m just reflecting now thinking those — that coaching, that pre-empting is like a planning phase, it’s not an impulsive phase where you get out the car, chuck them on the thing and then wonder why it doesn’t go well. You’re actually talking about clearing out some time, everyone coming in regulated, speaking to everybody calmly before.

And I just was reflecting how difficult I would have found that or I wouldn’t have been able to do that before taking ADHD medication. So everybody’s different but for me it’s helped me manage my children better because I’m more regulated and I can see it coming rather than pulling up the cards and then wondering how it’s happened.

Actually that planning phase and that chatting phase, because that’s coming in very regulated, very planned, and then you’re modeling that planning phase for your kids as well.

So then they say struggle to regulate through a day at high or a specific something that they’ve got coming up, but they know a little way that they can prep emotionally with — even without you doing that, they’re going to naturally have those skills to pre-prep, going to get better.

I found my kids with this coaching have gotten better and better over time. With — it’s quick, okay guys, we’re about to go to someone’s house and I know that you might not want to leave when I say it’s time to go. I really get it but here is what I’m expecting. You talk through.

And then the way they can then navigate that dysregulation or that emotional disappointment of oh I don’t want to leave, but I can and they have a strategy for how they can help themselves in that moment.

Gen Muir:

My youngest child is the test — everything I teach. His ability eventually to say but I can cuddle my favorite toy strategy. But it is through practicing it.

But yeah I loved your reflection just then actually about the ability of us to be able to — is vital in all of this and to not be surprised.

And we’re learning as we go. Like the biggest thing I’d say is people say to me all the time I wish I’d had you when my kids were little. And I go I wish I’d had me. Well I didn’t know all this, like I’ve learned the hard way. I’ve learned by doing everything the way I would say don’t do that.

And so I think yes there’s that as well. We’re learning as we go and we’re learning oh that pre-game coaching worked and so then that’s meant we’re more to do that.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah, yeah. I get a lot of people that send me DMs and they say with the amount of money it costs I have to put my children first and I’m going to go ahead and get them diagnosed and I’ll just worry about myself later. Which I totally understand the attitude.

However, once I started taking medication I was really able to parent better. And when you parent better your children go better regardless of whether they’re medicated, diagnosed, whatever’s going on. If they have someone who’s more regulated and more patient and can plan those conversations, personally I have found that invaluable.

And if you put the oxygen mask on first that means you can help others as opposed to the other way around.

One burning question that I see in the DMs is around timeouts. So I think there’s an understanding, and again everyone’s different. I think the messaging around hitting and smacking, I think has changed. I think this generation has changed, I don’t see that happening as much. And I see there’s a lot of education and stuff that’s gone on there about what to do instead.

But then I hear a lot of information around timeouts and I feel like timeouts have taken place of the smacking. Like you don’t smack a child, you put them in timeout. There’s that UK nanny that comes in and she has the chair and she makes them sit there. And I feel like it’s become a bit more of a this is what you do — the child’s not listening, put them in timeout.

I was wondering if there was any alternatives to the timeout. My husband and I got a bit of a conversation that we have around it. He does believe in the timeout and I said to him that I felt that the child goes into the room and just silently hates you for 10 minutes and I thought it was really unhealthy and I didn’t think they came out any better, I think they came out worse and the relationship was damaged. But then when he said what else should I do I was like I don’t know.

Gen Muir:

Okay, I’ve got an answer for you. And I really believe it’s a time in.

But I will tell you what a time in is. Instead I want to tell you what doesn’t happen in this timeout. So just say one of my kids hits the other. I say go to your room and come back when you can say sorry.

My child goes to their room, they come out in 10 minutes, they may even say they’re sorry. And it may look like that worked. I might feel good about that as a parent, we can get an immediate result in that a behavior may stop.

But what we do know is that behavior will continue. We may as well set a timer and in 27 minutes my son is going to hit his brother again. Because here is what I haven’t done in that moment — I haven’t taught him that it was an emotion that led to a behavior.

So all I’ve done is say that behavior gets you separated from your primary caregivers. So at best hide that behavior from me, at worst it adds to disconnection, right?

But my child hasn’t learned any new skills. And essentially what we’re talking about is a skills gap. My child isn’t able to regulate or make a better choice in the moment. The only way that can change is through that coaching from me.

And the only way through that is something like this: my child just hit his sibling. I step in and say hey, I can see something’s gone wrong, I can’t let you hit, I’m going to check if he’s okay. Are you both okay?

I’m neutral, I’m not shaming anybody, I’m not sending anybody away. With a caveat — I’m going to give you a caveat in a second — and it’s messy. But as much as possible I then do whatever I need to do to keep everybody safe, which is essentially a two-step process. I’m going to contain and bring safety back to this situation and get everybody back to a place where we can at least hear each other.

And that might be moving my child to a timeout. But the important message is not go to your room and come back when you’ve sorted yourself out. It’s I need to keep you safe, I’m going to move you here, I’m going to move him there, or I’m going to move me or the dog or whatever so that we can get to a place of safety.

And then we’re going to sort this out. And I know you’re a good kid having a hard time.

Gen Muir:

So that we do shaming in that second opportunity. My child does not get disconnected from that primary bearer so their brain is less likely to be up as far in fight, flight or freeze as it would be if I just put them in timeout.

And through the empathy I’ve offered and the boundary, the safety and the seen-ness that I offer, their brain is in a place where they’ve got the capacity to maybe have my coaching work. When I say I get that your brother’s annoying, I can’t let you hit, what could we do next time instead of hitting?

And now I have a chance of — that will only take five thousand repetitions — but I have a chance of my child actually hearing that coaching.

The other thing I’ve done is say I’m a safe place to come to even when you’re mucking up. I’m a safe place to come to even when you’re getting it wrong. And long term I want to be that first phone call.

So when I’m working with parents, yes I could extinguish your child’s behavior with threats and timeouts maybe. But what we know is that long term what they’ve learned is not to regulate through emotions better but to hide those from you, to not go to you with those emotions, to not show them to you. And that’s not what we want long term for the relationship.

So a time in is simply where we acknowledge like first of all with the timing, if things have gotten dysregulated to the point people are hitting or there’s a safety issue, we’re containing.

And I want to give parents the permission to know that sometimes the best solution is going to be a timeout. If you’re going to wring your child’s neck, put them in a timeout. That might be the best option.

The best thing you can do is make sure that if we can swing it this way, this is how I’d swing it: I need a timeout, mummy needs a timeout. I’m going to put on an episode of Bluey and everyone’s going to chill and I’m going to talk to you in a second because I need a timeout. Would be the best way we could do it.

And if we don’t have that capacity and what we wind up saying is go to your room, and you’ve got the capacity to add I’m coming in, I just need you to take a minute to keep you safe and I am coming in to help you with this — it’s a slightly different message.

And if we possibly can we say hey, I can see you’re not okay, let’s go to your room together, I’m going to help you with this, there’s nothing we can’t sort out together. We don’t always have that perfect ability, that’s not within us all the time and it doesn’t need to be.

And that’s why I gave lots of different examples of me stepping out, of me putting a child out. But if the underlying message is there’s nothing you can’t ever bring to me or show me, I am here.

For some kids they do go into a very deep shame response when they’re in trouble and so they’ll be saying go away, leave me alone. And if parents are thinking I can never — is that a timeout? And we say look, you might be at the door going you can see you’re having a really hard time, I’m here when you’re ready. Might be as close as you can get to that child in that moment without making it worse.

Other children we lean into that and say I know you’re saying go away but I’m going to sit here on your floor until you’re ready because I’m not going to leave you in this state. And that’s about us being confident to be what our child needs in the moment.

So that’s a lot, but essentially reframing a timeout to be a time in. You can use a naughty step as long as you’re sitting with your child. I wouldn’t call it a naughty step, I’d say hey I can see you’re not okay, let’s sit here on this step together until we’re feeling ready to go back out there. Would be a time in.

Does that make sense?

Jane McFadden:

Yeah it does actually, I think that really makes sense. I’ve just got — my mind is just going so fast. That was incredible. I really am going to reflect on that over a long period. I really enjoyed that.

I think that’s a happy medium because I think sometimes when my hubby does it, is it better than yelling at them, is it better than feeling just out of control — yes, you’re right, I think that probably is appropriate.

But the around it we could possibly reframe, I could ask him to go check. I think we could meet in the middle there.

Gen Muir:

That’s about us spotting our dysregulation sooner and saying hey, I’m stepping in sooner, things are getting heated here, let’s pull off, let’s separate out, let’s bring things down. But obviously that doesn’t always happen.

And I think we need to reframe a timeout to a time in, like I’m coming with you somewhere. And so our child loses it in a shopping center, we get them out of there not because they’re in trouble, because that’s kind, and we get them to the car and we go whoa, you’re not okay and I’m here. This is the time in.

And it’s such a different experience for us. There’s less shame, I’m helping you not punishing you, it’s I guess the difference.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah and I love that because I was saying that to my hubby. Because we’ve got one that always ends up in timeout and two that I don’t think have ever been timed out. So it feels a bit at that one child, the middle one.

But I said to him the other day you miss that beautiful experience of when you actually go into the room and you do have time and there’s two of us there so one of us can go in. I said it’s actually really beautiful to sit with him, help him through it and then get the beautiful hug at the end.

And he’s only six so you get the tears on the face still and the sobbing, and then there’s that moment of connection when he realizes he’s not in trouble. We have a chat about it, he comes out, he tries to rectify it in whatever way it is, and you’re closer in that you’ve helped him rather than the punish. That’s what I think I was having trouble with my hubby, I was like but you’re missing out.

Gen Muir:

Yeah and I agree. But we’re all at a different place in our journey or what we’re capable of doing under pressure because of our family of origin. So his story is different to yours, his strengths are different to yours.

And some of us are more able to sit in those really heavy moments. And like my best moments with my kids have come from moments where I’ve stuffed it all up and yelled, and then I’ve had to go in for a time in and sat there with them. I’ve worked through something really hard or a mistake I made or something.

It feels amazing. It’s hard to describe but it is an amazing thing.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah that doesn’t happen every time, does it? Sometimes I just get told to go away repeatedly. But sometimes you do get those moments.

Look Gen Muir, thank you so much for your time. Is there anything that you want to add that I haven’t? I know I’ve missed a couple of questions.

Gen Muir:

No, I’m super happy. I’ve loved chatting to you. It’s been really informative for me too.

Jane McFadden:

Oh, I’m excited to take my electricity bill and actually start implementing, particularly with my daughter. If this could not solve it but if I could have a word with my daughter and we could build up and we made some improvements, that would transform our family. And I actually feel pretty confident that might be it.

So I think the thank you is all to you. And if you’d like to hear more about Gen Muir, read her book, go on her website, follow her on Instagram, I will put everything in the episode notes.

Thank you so much Gen Muir.

Gen Muir:

Osha, thanks for having me.

Jane McFadden:

The key message here is you are not alone. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode follow us on Instagram or head over and join our amazing ADHD Mums Podcast Facebook community. Everything you do matters and helps to spread the word about what neurodiversity in females looks like.