Episode 44 – Supporting Neurodivergent Kids with Friendships and Boundaries with Bec Sparrow

Jane McFadden:
Welcome to the ADHD Mums Podcast, a safe place for everyday Australian mums to discuss their struggles with ADHD, motherhood and life. Hello and welcome to ADHD Mums. We have another topic which is one of the most requested topics and I always struggle to find people that are willing to talk on it.

We have got ADHD and autistic friendships and I’ve brought on the great Michelle Garnett and Tony Atwood. Welcome to you.

Michelle Garnett:
Oh, thank you.

Jane McFadden:
The great Michelle. Oh, you know what? My hubby and I were talking late at night and we were saying, who would you go like out for dinner with or whatever? Like if you could only pick your top 10 and I was like, Michelle and Tony would have to be in it. He’s like, what do you want to ask? And I was like, I don’t know, just anything.

Personally, I’ve discovered you both from my autistic clinical psychologist that diagnosed us. You know, when you hear that news that you’re not expecting, I was pretty shattered and you don’t get a lot of process time either because I didn’t realize when I arrived there what was going to happen. I thought we were doing a very simple thing.

It ended up being much bigger than that, which is full respect and thank you to the clinical psychologist for doing that for us. But I was really thrown. And when I went and did your courses, I was really grateful that it was only a short gap between finding out being really spun out to about a week of doing one of your first courses.

So I found you guys to be a real lifeline in terms of it’s okay. This isn’t catastrophic. We’re okay and we can get through it.

So I always try and showcase you both because I think if people can discover you early on, it saves some of that, you know, you’re talking to a friend who says something really awful accidentally.

Michelle Garnett:
Wow. Thank you. That is like our dream come true, Jane. Yeah. This is why we’re in it.

We want people to understand that being neurodivergent autistic ADHD is not a doom and gloom story. It’s an amazing story, but it does require knowledge, which is why we’re just so supportive of what you’re doing because it’s not the dominant paradigm. It’s not everyone that thinks this way.

We are a neuro minority. So that knowledge is super, super important. And then attitude that it’s embracing it.

It’s about respect and affirmation and wonder and curiosity so we can learn more and then become our authentic selves. So it’s just wonderful to get that feedback. Thank you, Jane.

Jane McFadden:
So Tony Atwood, Michelle Garnett, all of their information will be on the show notes. So I’m not going to go into all of their story. They’ve already done two different episodes, which are listed in the show notes.

So if you love this episode, you can always go back, listen to the other ones. We’re going to jump right in. How are ADHD and autistic friendships different to neurotypical people?

Michelle Garnett:
Great question. And I’m going to actually talk about them individually, autism and then ADHD. But of course, you can be an audi HDR and have both. And so that’s fun.

And a lot of us relate to that. But certainly for our autistic kids, they are great friends, amazing qualities for friendship, loyalty, honest, very often keen for friendship, keen for deeper connection, too. But they find socializing really difficult.

And I say they as kids and certainly as an adult autistic woman, I can relate to this and went through this as a child. But just talking about the kids friendships when they’re autistic, there’s two things that are huge going on. And that is one, interpreting the social cues, the context and the cues on the face, facial expression, tone of voice, gesture.

What does that all mean? How do I make sense of it and formulate an answer? And just also understanding friendship itself. What does that mean? How do I make a friend? How do I keep up? Can be very confusing. What we find is that autistic individuals tend to enjoy closer friendships, often around interest, sharing information.

As one of my wonderful autistic friends says, I just love getting together for a special interest dump. We just dump information on each other. It’s awesome.

And that’s a lovely autistic friendship. It can be small groups, maybe up to four, but essentially they like the smaller groups. Oh, by the way, you can be autistic and introverted or extroverted just as you are neurotypically, same with ADHD.

ADHD is tend to be considered more extroverted and more socially motivated, but it’s not always true. There’s introverts, but with the ADHD friendships, there can be a struggle to maintain focus and concentration in the actual conversation or the play. And so that the person is often off track or missed what they said, and then doesn’t want to ask to say something else, but that doesn’t land.

It was quite out of the blue, random, a little bit hard to follow. So a neurotypical person can be thinking, well, this is odd. This feels different.

I don’t know how to have this conversation. Also, the person may just be impulsive and not mean to, but in neurotypical code, we don’t interrupt each other. So they’re just impulsively interrupting.

And they do that because they will forget what they want to say and they want to share. So it’s a very friendly behavior, but it doesn’t necessarily land well. And the other thing we found with ADHD is, is they can be very intense in their friendships.

Loads of ideas, like let’s do this. And that can be a little bit over the top. Someone who’s not necessarily looking for that level of intensity of engagement and ideas and creativity.

So the friendship may burn out quickly. And the ADHDer is left with me, where did I write it? Or I wanted that friendship to continue. You can feel quite confused about why it ended.

And the struggles that I mentioned can be very real and continue through a lifetime, for those friendships.

Jane McFadden:
I love the way that you put that. I think that was so eloquent, especially with the ADHD. I was a bit thrown because I was like, there has been a bit of crash and burn. I get it. Where you don’t listen or you’re too quick.

You don’t follow up. You don’t ask how they are. So then my hubby always says to me that I think that everybody is neurodivergent because we don’t know many neurotypical people.

And he’s always like, see, you think everyone’s neurodivergent. But I say to him, that’s our unit. We work in packs.

And he struggles to believe that because everyone he’s friends with seems to be neurodivergent. So I was just wondering why that is.

Tony Atwood:
Well, in friendships and so on, you’re looking for like-minded individuals, similar values, similar interests, etc. You’re looking for a sense of validation in who you are. But also, if you’re in a group, you’re safer, especially for bullying and teasing if you’re in a group. But it also means for not just safety, but in terms of achievement, you can do more, learn more in a group.

It could be more fun. So one of the friendships is finding someone of like mind, of interests and experiences and so on. So we often find autistic individuals and ADHD individuals at school find each other.

I don’t know how they do it, but they spot each other. And when they do, they suddenly realize that this is somebody who’s a bit different, but like me. And that can be a very positive experience.

And so you’re going to find a congregation of like-minded people.

Jane McFadden:
I love that. That is so funny. My hubby and I have got an ongoing joke that neurotypical people are boring. So whenever he meets someone that’s boring, he always says, Oh, they’re probably one of those typical ones. Like, I don’t know what’s wrong with them.

They’re just a bit boring. And I’m like, Yeah, well, you know, who knows? He goes, I just like a bit more excitement, you know, a bit more something to say. And I was like, yeah, the ADHD, that’s what you like.

Tony Atwood:
Exactly. Exactly.

Jane McFadden:
Okay. So with kids and a lot of us, ADHD mums have got children who also have ADHD amongst other things as well. What are some of the typical struggles that you see in friendships with children?

Michelle Garnett:
One of the main things we see with kids with ADHD is impulse control issues. So they’re often very socially motivated. They want friends. And some can actually make, I’ve found a pattern with the ADHD kids, they can make a friend quickly. It’s keeping one, they burn out quickly.

And it means that the ADHD is often looking for that dopamine hit, just as you said for your husband, looking for that exciting person who’s also going to have amazing creativity, lots of ideas, take some risks, have some fun together. And so they can find each other in the playground. It’s heaven.

And we find later as adults come in, ADHD is they’ll say, Oh, yeah, as I look back, all my friends at school have now been diagnosed with ADHD. So they do find each other. But the struggle is that of course, that’s again, the minority, there’s 10%, apparently, at the moment, we know, prevalence rates for ADHD, 10% of the kids will be ADHD.

So they find each other. But it’s the other kids, the ones that don’t get it, will not necessarily understand that impulsivity being interrupted, not waiting to learn the rules of the game, just want to play it their way, or not understanding that there’s kind of turn taking needed and reciprocity, if you like in play. And they’re not doing that.

And that feels wrong. And so whenever something feels a bit off, a bit weird, or different in human relationships, there is a lot of research now to show that from social psychology and sociology studies, that there’s a turning away from, there’s a, I don’t really like that, I don’t think I’ll hang out with that. And that can really interrupt friendships for our ADHDers.

And similarly for autism, because of that difficulty of understanding other people’s perspectives, and on the fly, in how fast the social interaction is being able to read the cues, infer motivation, infer expectation, know the social context, that’s not all coming in intuitively. The neuro circuitry isn’t like that. It’s wide for different ways of like systemizing and sensory exploration.

And so the child is lost in that, not social world. And there can be a real then disconnect that’s felt on both sides. And we now know that our autistic kids at school, when they are trying to make friends, they’re using neurotypical social skills.

There’s a problem from the other side as well. So it’s called in the research, cognitive empathy, the ability to infer perspective, motivation, expectation. It’s happening on the other side too.

It’s called the double empathy problem. So the kids aren’t really reading the autistic or ADHD either. So there’s a miscommunication on both sides.

And so misunderstandings and that friendship falters and fails. So it is difficult. It is far more difficult.

We’ve both seen in our work over time for our kids in primary school and in the teenage years to form good friendships and connection at school and to feel included, to feel that they’re part of the group, that they have found their place in the community. And it’s a real struggle.

Jane McFadden:
Yeah, I love that. And I think that I usually try and pick a school that’s a little neurodiverse because if the school has a policy that they don’t allow diagnosed children or whatever it is, I don’t want my children just being the only neurodivergent child there because you’re right, like that communication gap could be a real problem.

Michelle Garnett:
Yeah, absolutely. It’s so nice to hear that. I think the schools that I have seen doing really well with our neurodivergent kids are welcoming. The doors are open. They’re not scared of it.

They’re inclusive and they feel that culture. They feel the atmosphere. And as you know, then also there’s more opportunity for connection and friendship because of what we’re talking about, the like-mindedness.

Jane McFadden:
Oh, absolutely. So then moving into adulthood, what would be the typical struggles you’d see in friendship there? Is there a continuing on or something different?

Tony Atwood:
Yes, indeed. It’s a continuing on. And one of the things that Michelle mentioned can occur in the adults too. And that is the intensity of social media contact or meeting up and so on. Or it’s either too much or too little.

And the friend says, but you haven’t contacted me for three months. I thought you’d close the friendship, et cetera. No, no. I was just distracted by other things. So it can be out of sight, out of mind in a way.

So another dimension for adults in terms of friendship is vulnerability and gullibility to be taken advantage of in many ways from a financial good heart to be taken advantage of. And suddenly find out this friendship is not in balance. I’m doing a lot of the work here. They’re taking advantage of me.

They’re actually taking my money, but I’m not getting a fair return. But there’s another dimension that can occur both for the kids and for the adults. To a certain extent, both ADHD and autism can be very blunt and say what they think.

So when their friend says, do you think I look fat in this? Then the friend says, yes, you are. You’re obese. And you’re thinking, yes, it’s true, but you didn’t say it in a way that there’s likely to be offense.

Now, one of the things we picked up with autism, not necessarily ADHD, is you have certain beliefs or values or friendship rules. And if you break that rule, the friendship may be completely over. And the friend may think, why? All I said was I wanted to vote for Donald Trump.

Why would that be a reason to end the friendship? But that’s a cardinal sin in that person’s belief on friendship. But the final dimension I want to refer to occurs both for kids and adults. And that is fear of rejection, rejection sensitivity.

And that can be needing a lot of reassurance that they misperceive situations, no contact of they’re rejecting me. They don’t want to be with me anymore. So they need someone to reassure that they’re probably very busy and they’ll get back to you when they can.

Jane McFadden:
Would they sometimes self-sabotage then? Like, I think that friendship might be ending, so I’m going to end it first, kind of to avoid.

Tony Atwood:
Yes, I’m going to be in charge at the end, or I’m going to test you. Are you really a genuine friend? So there is a difficulty with the intuitive understanding as you’re trying to do this cognitively.

And as such, there may be approaches that are misunderstood by the friend.

Jane McFadden:
Got it. Okay, got it. So then if we fast forward into what we can do, because I think we all see the problems play out in our homes. It’s heartbreaking when your child’s left out, you know, a number of times. What are some of the things that we can do to build skills with our children?

Michelle Garnett:
Great question. And it’s a nuanced question because I think, you know, if we take both sides, so there’s, first of all, the little kids. All little kids need some guidance socially. We don’t come into the world socialized and our frontal lobes take time to develop in terms of being able to read other people and infer motivation, etc.

So allowing for that growth is really important because what we’ve seen happen is that, yes, a child can really benefit from social skills training. They can learn the social code, feel more confident, gain more success, and that’s a great outcome. But we can also see that the danger or the risk that is inherent in that is that we can also be teaching them that their way is wrong and there’s this other way that’s right and they have to always adapt to the other way without actually validating within themselves and having external validation that they have a point or their way is also valid.

One of the things we’ve found a lot for people who become very well socialized to the normative type called neurotypical way of socializing is it doesn’t solve the problem of loneliness, anxiety, or depression. They hit their adult years and they say, I’ve become what was needed. I’ve learned the code.

I still am not feeling that I am happy. I haven’t found who I really am. I am depressed. I am anxious. I am not finding my people. And so we now know that it’s actually really helpful still.

It’s nuanced, as I said. So if we talk about the primary years, yes, do assist your kids to understand social situations. But also, I would be wanting to introduce ADHD, autism as the vernacular.

We’re talking about neurodivergence from a very early age because the research is showing that having a positive identity associated with autism and ADHD is really helpful for authentic self-realization in the teen years and adult life. And it’s easier to have that acceptance when you’re a child. And you come into your teen years and you’re like, yeah, I’m autistic, and these are my strengths, and this is where I struggle.

So we want to strike a balance here. We’re saying, you’re amazing, your autism, your ADHD, this is what it means for you and your strengths, and these are the challenges. And really trying to work with the child, what do you want to know how to do? What’s the goal? Do you want to be able to learn how to join in with a group and play soccer on the oval? Or do you just want one friend and you can sit in the library together to draw? So really trying to work out the goals for the kid themselves.

Now, when we come to the teenage years, the waters get really choppy because suddenly we get a lot more social awareness come in, the hormones come in, anxiety goes up. And if a diagnosis is made in the teen years, that’s the last thing the teenager wants to hear because they just want to fit in. They don’t want to be told you’re autistic or ADHD generally.

Obviously there’s exceptions. So there, I think we need to be very, very sensitive to that and validate who they are. We may not be able to embrace an autistic or ADHD positive identity in these years because they’ve already internalized the stigma and discrimination associated with those labels, but we do still want to assist them to become the authentic self in terms of their strengths and their challenges.

And that’s where we have more guidance and direction. If they’re interested in learning the neuro-normative social code, there’s loads of resources, again, through Jessica Kingsley Publishers. There’s a lot of strategies we can teach them for how to build friendship and how to enjoy people.

But

You said:

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ADHD MUMS Podcast Transcript Formatter said:

Michelle Garnett:
But what we’re really trying to do is help them have that positive identity and skills to navigate being a neuro-minority. The analogy we use is it’s a bit like moving to Japan. Now, if you want to move to Japan and you’re Australian, if you want to have a job and integrate and have friends, you’re probably going to need to learn the language, learn the customs, understand the culture.

And it’s a bit like that if you’re autistic or ADHD, you probably need some skills to navigate the neuro-normative culture. But you never lose the fact that you are Australian. You know, you’re just Australian learning Japanese.

So you’re ADHD, autistic, learning neurotypical. That’s it. It doesn’t define you.

Jane McFadden:
That makes sense. It’s kind of like if you go to the UK and then you end up hanging around with all these Australians and you’re like, how did all the Australians find each other? Because you’re in the UK. But that’s exactly the autistic people finding each other in Japan.

Okay, so for people that are late diagnosed, who are finding out later on, what are some of the strategies that they can try if they’re still struggling with friendships, which I see all the time?

Tony Atwood:
Yeah, one of the advantages in a way of school is you’re in close proximity of people who could become a friend. If you’re an adult now and you’re unemployed, the opportunities of making friendships are very limited because one of the ways adults will make friends is in the workforce. So one of the ways is checking on employment.

Another, in a way, is hobbies and interests to meet other people, to look at further education and so on, but also people of similar beliefs. So it may be going to a church with similar beliefs, or a cause that you may have like the environment. It can also be people who collect things. That’s why I look at Antiques Roadshow, people who are repairing clocks, or old vehicles and things like that. So you’re doing restorations and so you meet people and the conversation isn’t necessarily social superficial chit chat. It’s how do I fix a 1947 Rolls Royce, whatever.

But there’s also needing a friendship mentor. That is someone who can help you identify suspicious friendships, those friendships that may have ulterior motives and you’re being taken advantage of. But it’s also to help with issues of conflict, the value of compromise, cooperation, to see different perspectives, because if not careful, that conflict resolution may be a bit elusive for somebody ADHD and autistic.

And they may need someone who can explain the other person’s point of view and to compromise in that situation. So it can be a parent, a partner, or another friend, who can give them guidance in that friendship.

Jane McFadden:
Oh, that makes sense. That makes sense completely. So I suppose one of the mum things that people do now is they’ll go, is it just me? And they’ll send you like screenshots of what a conversation they’ve had with their sister or brother or usually a family member that’s pushing buttons like, is that offensive? Or is that just me, you know, having that someone to bounce off as to whether you’re probably becoming triggered or upset about, you know, whether I suppose your thoughts are valid or not.

Tony Atwood:
Yeah, it needs to be someone you trust, and is going to give objective information, is not going to be overly critical or dismissive, but is going to give you some ideas of what to do constructively. So it’s being a mentor.

Jane McFadden:
Yeah, okay. Okay, great. I suppose the normative way of parenting is that you have an expectation that your child plays with friends at lunch, at recess, and maybe they have a play date now and then and they, you know, they play some kind of sport. If you have a child that doesn’t want to play sport, doesn’t want to play with anybody, maybe they like going to the library or sitting and doing crosswords by themselves. Should we be encouraging them to socialise more?

Michelle Garnett:
I think if this is the child’s inclination, and we know this is coming from neurodivergence rather than social anxiety or depression, then absolutely to respect that child’s natural inclinations, their need for solitude, especially for example, if this kid is attending a mainstream school, and there really are no true break sensory and social breaks throughout the day, the neurotypical kids will look forward to the recess and lunch break because that’s when they get a break from the academic work.

But the social curriculum isn’t something they’re struggling with. That’s where they can just fit in with their friends, run around, have fun, or go intensely into conversations, whatever their thing is. But for the autistic child, and ADHD is too, they can just feel that unstructured time. It’s just too loud, too intense, too many people. I don’t feel safe. I don’t feel comfortable.

And they need a true break. The library is a perfect place to go. So I would be respecting that and also encouraging them. I know when that’s happened in our family, I’ve said, put on you. It’s really good that you’re listening to your needs. You need a break.

That’s going to give you a break. And then you’ve got more energy for the afternoon. Because if you think about it, you never ever have to be that social ever again, thank God, as you are at school.

It’s intense. It’s like six, seven hours. I don’t know how they all do the extracurricular as well afterwards, all that sport, debating, et cetera.

And it’s on all the time. There’s a requirement to socialize with the 26 to 30 people in your class, all the different teachers, especially in high school, that gets really tricky. All the supply of teachers, the teacher’s aides, the admin staff, and it’s relentless.

So I think honor the breaks when you get them. And our neurodivergent kids need them, definitely. And I think also that goes for after school.

So after school, if the child is too overloaded with social, they’re going to fail in terms of energy for managing the rest of their life. So the wheels can fall off pretty quickly. I’d be looking at allowing space for solitude and recharging the batteries and really reducing expectations around how many playdates we have.

I think it’s still wonderful to have playdates or hangouts after school because it does deepen the connections well. But it’s also about a little bit of social engineering. Who’s the right person? Do it one-on-one and don’t do it too much.

Maybe once a month is enough or once a term, depending on the child.

Tony Atwood:
Michelle and I have used the term, this person is alone, but not necessarily lonely.

Jane McFadden:
Oh, I love that. I love that. My daughter, who’s eight and a half, is such a great example of that. She is aware enough of herself. She will say, I need to have a day off in the next two weeks. Honestly, she’s like 25 years old. And I’m like, okay.

She’s like, when would that be good for you? Because she knows if I’ve got lots of meetings, depending on what it is, I can’t do it all at the time. But I’m like, once a term, if you need a day off, let me know in advance. We can plan it.

But if you landed on me in the morning, all of a sudden, I’m like, you need to feel it in your body and then let me know in advance. We’ll plan it rather than it getting urgent.

Michelle Garnett:
Brilliant. I think that’s wonderful. I really agree with the need for mental health days for our neurodivergent kids attending the mainstream schools. And I really also love that you’re assisting your daughter by encouragement and acceptance and validation to start to listen to her body, to start to be aware, because that’s just such a fantastic life skill that she’s going to take into her adult life, when we all need to do that, or we face burnout, we face mental challenges, because we are just not listening to the body.

And that has, I can tell you, Jane, that has played out so much in the sorts of issues that you’ve brought to us in open therapy, because they’re just not listening to their body and not taking the breaks they need to recharge the battery.

Jane McFadden:
Oh, absolutely. But it’s always tempting as a mum to be like, oh, you should have gone and played, because you want them to have those experiences. It’s been a real challenge for me to be okay with the library, leaving early, not wanting to do all of it, but that’s her choice. Anyway, we will finish that up. Thank you so much for your time.

Michelle and Tony have got a number of courses on friendships. I know you’ve got the primary school friendship workshop that I’ve done. Do you have an older one? I think you have a teen one.

Michelle Garnett:
Yes, indeed, we do. We have a high school friendship one. That’s tricky.

Jane McFadden:
I don’t have high school aged kids, but I kind of want to do that one just to know. Okay, well, that’s another one to put on the list. Thank you so much.

If anyone would like to check out more on friendships, ADHD, being autistic, you have got all of the information there on the website. Thank you so much for your time, Michelle and Tony. I really appreciate it.

Michelle Garnett:
It’s been a delight to pass on our experiential wisdom.

Tony Atwood:
Thank you for hosting this, Jane. It’s been a pleasure.

Jane McFadden:
Thanks a lot. Not a worry. The key message here is you are not alone.

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