Jane McFadden:

Hello and welcome to the next episode of ADHD Mums. We have a really anticipated theme that I have been trying to find the right person to do for a long time and that is perfectionism and ADHD and who could be better than Angie the ADHD coach to discuss that with me. So welcome to you Angie.

Angie:

Thank you, I’m excited. So we were saying that we have gone off to the most imperfect start. So basically as I was trying to log on and I was also frantically eating lunch, sickbay called from one of my kids’ schools and I thought of course oh my god Angie’s waiting and I’m going to have to go and then of course they let me know that I had not packed any lunch for one of my kids and then I had to give them credit card details to try and get them I suppose get my child sorted and the fact that they knew me and knew my usual process was terrifying to me that I’d become commonplace called to the mum.

And Angie also had a similar morning if you want to share.

Angie:

Yeah absolutely. So I had a doctor’s appointment at 8:30 and I decided I had time to boil some eggs at about 10 past 8 so I was doing that and then needed to get in the car and book it to the doctors and couldn’t find my keys so then I was like that’s fine. I had a bit of a rummage when I couldn’t find them I was like I’ve got the Tile app so I’m just gonna call my keys from my Tile and sure enough the battery had run out on the Tile and so I couldn’t find the keys. Turned out actually the keys were on the front seat of the car for anyone who wanted to take the car overnight and then right before I left to come here to the office to do this podcast with you I lost my phone and I thought that’s fine I’ll I’ve changed the battery now in the Tile I’ll call my phone from my Tile and found the phone in the rain outside under the you’ll have to excuse my word finding abilities at the moment the clothesline that’s the word so it’s been working for both of us.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah yeah it’s fine it wasn’t heavy rain thankfully it was just spitting. Okay okay and then Angie of course had to email me because she hadn’t sent me the link or I hadn’t sent her the Riverside link and then I said oh Angie what was our episode that we did before we should really talk about that and then neither of us could remember what the episode was about which is a good one so we’ve looked that up and it is called Bored and Tired. And then I said to Angie funny I forgot that because that’s actually in the top 10 episodes of all time so the fact that we didn’t remember doesn’t reflect poorly on the episode it’s actually one of the most downloaded episodes there is.

So there is that there I’ve just realized I haven’t even read your bio yet Angie this is going to be a ride. So for those of you who haven’t listened to Angie’s other episode called Bored and Tired which is so my weekend by the way, Angie is a wife, a mom, an ADHD coach and a co-founder of the Sunshine Coast ADHD Professionals Network with Dr. Laura Bennett. Angie was diagnosed in October 2020 and her ADHD diagnosis was a surprise to no one. Angie loves to support ADHDers to understand their unique brain wiring, appreciate their gifts and create the life they love.

I truly believe that ADHDers are uniquely wired to change the world. That is a very positive spin on it. So if you haven’t listened to Angie’s other episode Bored and Tired absolutely highly recommend that you do. Angie was one of the first or probably I think the first guest that I ever reached out to because I really liked her Facebook so give her a follow on Instagram. I always have a look at I like all your memes too I often reshare them I’m like Angie it’s a good one.

So today we were talking about what theme to do and I had said to her that I had been trying to search for the right person to do perfectionism and so I love the irony and the imperfect start that we have had but we will persist because we are both hardcore perfectionists which is an interesting jam with ADHD.

Angie:

Absolutely I think though it goes hand in hand and I’m sure we’ll get into that a little bit later on but I would say I’m definitely a recovering perfectionist I’m doing much better than I used to be.

Jane McFadden:

Okay okay well that’s great I’m still in it so this is going to be excellent for me to be around somebody who’s starting to move towards recovery.

So Angie for people that don’t know you and haven’t listened to your last episode can you give us a bit of an overview about your diagnosis journey, medication and kind of who you are before we delve into the specifics of perfectionism?

Angie:

Sure so a lot of girls get missed because they present more with the inattentive type. I got missed and I was the definition of the hyperactive little boy. I had the masking tape square around my desk at school and all sorts of other things so it’s just interesting I guess it was the time that I grew up in was really the factor that contributed to me not getting my diagnosis until 2020 when I was 35.

So that happened right around the same time that I returned to work after the birth of my second child and I just remember forgetting things constantly and doing some really strange things that made me question myself. So I ended up going to the doctor thinking that I had early onset dementia which eventually after a whole bunch of other yeah eventually I got my diagnosis in 2020 after I saw a psychologist and then later saw a psychiatrist. So from there I tried lots of different medications have landed on Vyvanse but at that time that I got diagnosed I’d just taken on a promotion at work as well and I moved from doing the work that I loved which was one-on-one client work into leadership which meant that I was doing task-oriented work and I realized very quickly that I had shot myself in the foot and so in my reading and researching as most of us have experienced after we get our diagnosis we go down the rabbit hole I had come across ADHD coaching and decided to give it a try.

Unfortunately I didn’t have a great experience and didn’t get a lot out of it so I sort of dismissed it for a while but later revisited it as a possibility for myself because I thought my work in mental health might translate really nicely into ADHD coaching which is where I find myself now and so I’ve been full-time in my ADHD coaching practice since October last year so just turned one and I’d started out in June. So I’ve been doing this for about a year and a half now close to yeah.

Jane McFadden:

Congrats I think one year in your own business is not for the faint-hearted especially with ADHD you’ve got all of the things all of the jobs including all the ones that you hate so congrats that’s a big achievement.

Angie:

Thank you yeah I actually knew from the get-go if the business was going to fail it would fail on admin or finances so I was really intentional about getting the finances and the admin side of things sorted before I even got started.

Jane McFadden:

Nice, nice, yes nice. Okay so let’s jump into perfectionism and ADHD.

I was wondering I suppose straight up if you could talk about yourself as an example for perfectionism and ADHD and then maybe we move into the why afterwards just so people can kind of hear because I didn’t really realize I was a perfectionist until kind of a year ago and I was like oh wow I think I am actually one of those people.

Angie:

Yeah I think it’s difficult to see yourself as a perfectionist until it becomes a problem but even looking back in primary school I remember if I didn’t get everything right on the page I would tear the entire page out or if I made a mistake with my spelling I would tear the entire page out and start from scratch so the beginnings of my perfectionism were there already when I was nine ten years old and it only got worse from there and so I remember many times missing events because I didn’t look the way that I wanted to look I had a vision of how I wanted to look for the event and if I didn’t match that image then I just wouldn’t go and there was nothing that anyone could do to convince me otherwise.

And I mean there was some other there was an eating disorder in there and probably some body dysmorphia as well which as we know often go along with ADHD but that perfectionism was always there driving that as well and then oh and I actually nearly missed meeting my husband or getting to spend time with my husband for the first time because I had one of those situations where I didn’t look the way that I wanted to look I didn’t like how I looked so I wasn’t going to go to this big dinner that we were all supposed to go to and in the end I went I felt horrible about myself I was in a foul mood but they sat me next to my now husband and we got to know each other and he later became a big part of my story.

Jane McFadden:

Oh that’s so funny because you would have looked perfect to him.

Angie:

Well yeah he says so and then I used to tell him his standards weren’t high enough.

Jane McFadden:

Oh that’s funny oh yeah sorry we progress you continue sorry.

Angie:

More recently more recently I and when I say recently probably going back to the time of my diagnosis I started seeing a therapist and the thing that I took to therapy most often was my inability to invite anybody over to the house because my standard for cleanliness was so high and not in the sense that there was any OCD but the thought of inviting somebody over when the house wasn’t showroom perfect was debilitating for me and so I would take this to therapy all the time and I remember I had started to allow people in just gradually and my son has a friend who lives down the street her dad came to pick her up one day and I thought oh he’s a guy he won’t care I’m just going to sort of test the waters a little bit of graded exposure therapy and I invited him in and he sat down my husband had been cooking these Dutch doughnuts and so he sat and chatted with us and had doughnuts.

Not too long later we had a lot of people over for a Halloween gig we love to do the jack-o’-lanterns so everyone was coming over to carve the jack-o’-lanterns anyway when he got to the door he was the first one to arrive and his wife was behind him and he said oh what’s happened here and I said what do you mean and he goes it’s clean and I nearly died I wanted to sink into the floor.

Jane McFadden:

And you were thinking it was like my worst fear why I don’t invite people over because of that comment.

Angie:

Yeah and I don’t think it was even really that bad because my house usually wasn’t. It’s he has one child I have two so it’s obviously going to be easier for them to keep the place clean but I don’t think it was terrible on the day that he came in there was probably a lot of dishes from my husband’s cooking but nothing crazy.

But I would have the whole family had my son doing skirting boards.

Jane McFadden:

Exactly right shut up and be grateful.

Angie:

Exactly.

Jane McFadden:

So did you say you had your son doing skirting boards?

Angie:

Yeah before people would come over I’d have my son cleaning the skirting boards I’d have my husband doing the fans I’d be doing all the windows it was a whole operation and that’s part of the reason that I didn’t want to have people over too was way too stressful and took way too much effort.

But the thing I realized was that my values are connection, growth and courage and so it was really getting in the way of me being able to connect with people in the way that I wanted and really getting in the way of me being able to live out my values which was why I took it to therapy in the first place.

Jane McFadden:

Wow okay okay so having to look yourself and your house look perfect what it was that your main area or was there other areas too?

Angie:

I would say mainly the house and family life. I wanted that to look perfect even though you could make jokes about things being a mess but you didn’t want it to actually be a mess.

My work I loved my work. I don’t know if I would have considered myself a perfectionist but definitely a workaholic so perhaps there was some perfectionism happening there too that caused me to be at work longer than I needed to be.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah because for me I find perfectionism like it’s hard for me to just leave things and I’m just wondering if that’s the same for you it’s like I have to have to respond to everybody I have to respond to the emails I have to have it done and if there’s a question on family or self-care or food and then getting back to everybody I would 100% get back to everybody even though those people in a year’s time might not even be working in that company anymore I would still feel the need to not miss anybody and if other people could just get up and leave and not finish I just couldn’t understand how they could possibly even walk out.

Angie:

Yeah I think that’s a really common struggle especially with ADHD. I know that I often felt as though I put external people’s needs before the needs of my family because you have acceptance from your family where you’re trying to control other people’s perceptions of you when you’re dealing with people outside of the family or people through work or sort of anyone on the outside and perfectionism ultimately is about controlling perceptions.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah which is as you said is already you already have that there with your husband and kids potentially so you’re less likely to be like although I think there’s also a lot of pressure on ADHD mums to be the perfect mum and to be the perfect wife and have the perfect amount of therapy and the perfect amount of extracurriculars and there’s a constant adjusting for me anyway that’s definitely a focus of mine and then I never feel like I’ve done enough been enough the kids have enough or then do they have too much should you then give them less and then I’m in a whole spin around what is the perfect recipe for a childhood.

Angie:

Yeah oh absolutely and you can go on and on and on with that and I think what I see a lot of times with my ADHDers is like when it comes to tasks for instance there’s I’ve got a few different thoughts going on here but when it comes to tasks we might put everything on a huge long to-do list and then even looking at that list is overwhelming but we delude ourselves into thinking we can rest when we get through it all but the nature of tasks is that most of them are cyclical so they keep coming back and we never get to the end of that list.

So a lot of times when I’m working with clients it’s about providing containers for those lists because we can’t possibly get it all done there’s not enough time in the day.

Jane McFadden:

Yes if you’re living if you’re living it you know it well and it feels as though we can never rest when we’re in that cycle. Yeah and I think my psychologist really led me to that I think it was the one after he diagnosed me and I said to him I really want to stop living from this list on my phone and he goes oh why don’t you show me if it’s okay and I was like yeah yeah let me show you so I’m like so like intense about my list I showed him I had 560 notes all of them were pages long then they were categorized and then they were into days and then there was critical lists non-critical lists and all these other lists and he said to me I have never seen a more complex system and I said to him I need to know how to stop living like this and he’s like just stop adding to it and my whole head exploded I was like what do you mean that’s my purpose is to add to my list and not like and he’s like let’s just delete them and I was like no fucking way.

Angie:

Yeah yeah because we become dependent on it and I think a lot of us too have like our self-worth is tied to our productivity maybe we’ve learned that as we grew up and so then we don’t feel as though we can ever rest because productivity equals worth equals value and so we just keep on that hamster wheel running running running.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah yeah and I wonder if perfectionism is actually an addiction because if you think about like alcohol and food for example it’s like something to do to get away from yourself in my personal view like I’m feeling stressed I’m feeling my kids are doing this I’m gonna have a glass of wine I’m gonna eat some food and it can be for some people a real problem for them and sometimes I wonder with perfectionism whether it’s like productivity addiction where for me I’m like is this perfectionism where I keep playing with things and I can’t stop touching everything even though it’s done that I want to make it better is it just because I’m not wanting to sit with myself and I was wondering what your thoughts would be on that.

Angie:

Well I think Brene Brown said it when she said we’re all wired for connection and so when perfectionism shows up usually shame is underneath it and shame being as Brene defines it that fear that we’re not worthy of love and belonging and so then when we do feel that fear we tend to try to hide or we pretend like everything’s fine or we try to control things or numb things or we perfect them and so it’s often shame that drives that perfectionism and it’s shame that often drives addiction so in that way they’re similar they’re symptoms of shame.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah and then it’s kind of like I’m not enough like if you’re a child I’m not enough to be me I’m enough if I do all of these things and I achieve all of these things if I’m not doing that I won’t be loved is that the way you’re going with?

Angie:

Yeah I think so and I mean if you consider with ADHD most of us as kids have grown up hearing negative feedback or corrective feedback about ourselves all our lives and it’s constantly reinforced by different authority figures in our lives and usually those people who are in positions of authority when we’re younger it’s their voices that become our inner voice in adulthood and so then we develop these harsh inner critics that are like taskmasters slave drivers they keep us working for our worth hustling for our worth as Brene puts it.

Jane McFadden:

Love a bit of Brene.

Angie:

Oh me too me too.

Jane McFadden:

So why do you think it’s so difficult to break the cycle because I thought being medicated now I thought it would be easier and I’m still finding myself in that cycle even though I think the drive has probably backed off a little bit but yet I’m still actually doing the same things.

Angie:

Well I think when it comes to finding the antidote like again going back to Brene worthiness is that belief that you’re worthy of love and belonging and so a lot of the work that has to happen in order to prevent us from defaulting to perfectionism if that’s been our default is that we have to start developing self-compassion and we have to start the work of unmasking and finding those people who love us regardless of our imperfections and we need to start experimenting with doing things our way. It takes a lot of courage and a lot of vulnerability and I think for many of us we’re so afraid we’re still scared because we’ve been told all our lives that we’re too much or not enough and that obviously has a huge impact when we’re wired for belonging we desperately want belonging we feel already like there’s something wrong with us and so it can be too big a step sometimes it can feel like too big a step but ultimately that’s where we find freedom is that self-compassion and the self-acceptance and unmasking but it’s not easy.

Jane McFadden:

No and that can be really hard like as a child as you talk about the negative messagings because if you’re getting and we know the research shows that ADHD kids get a lot more negative messages than other kids so if our kids are receiving that negative response more often at school if they come home and we are maybe preoccupied with our task list or what we did and didn’t get to do that day and what we deemed as important and we’re not really connected with them or we’re not on their side in whatever they are dealing with at that time then I’m trying to imagine how that would then be for them and that’s what drives me to try and stop at times to break the cycle is because I’m like well how can I really be present in this situation someone ate my kids pretzels from his lunch box and that’s a really big upset for him if I’m actually just thinking about returning the toaster to the Good Guys and when really no one’s going to have toast in the morning it’s not a big deal but I want to tick it off my list where is the priorities.

Because when you get more self-aware I think I’ve seen myself as the level of productivity has become less important even though I still do it but I can catch myself going actually I’m still doing this action but this is actually not important.

Angie:

Yeah and I think that’s what’s really important about the self-discovery that has to happen and usually happens in adulthood like it’s really important to know what you value and that helps to guide what you prioritize in your life and so when you have those moments where you might be defaulting to perfectionism you can catch yourself and return to your values and go actually what is most important to me here.

Jane McFadden:

Absolutely so when you said you’re a recovering perfectionist I’m very curious what do you think the steps are in recovery if we think about perfectionism anonymous if we were running that what would I mean I’ve got I’d love to attend one of those meetings what would be some of the steps that you know you think would be important in that.

Angie:

Well I think self-compassion is key because it precedes self-acceptance. We need to be able to treat ourselves in the same way that we would treat a good friend or our child or someone who we value because usually if we visited our friends and they were stressed out and things were all over the place usually we’re really compassionate towards them we’re not beating them over the head with a stick telling them to clean it all up and what’s wrong with you and everyone else can do this why can’t you but we’re really harsh on ourselves so self-compassion is key and it’s something that takes time and practice to cultivate.

And then I think we really need to get into self-discovery so we need to understand what we value, what our strengths are, what we actually bring to the table because most of us focus on our weaknesses at the expense of acknowledging our strengths. What do I actually prefer? What are my standards? Because oftentimes we find that we’re living up to the expectations of the culture or we’re living up to the expectations of our family unit or we’re not living a life that’s authentic to us and so we need some like real time in self-reflection and introspection to figure out what we care about and how we can orient our lives around that.

And then we need the courage to be able to do things differently. I mean I remember working with a girl who she was supposed to work a four-day week and have Wednesdays off but what was happening for her was that she would spend all Wednesday cleaning and she wouldn’t actually have any rest time which was why she was working a four-day week in the first place.

And so when we got into it what was actually the sticking point was the laundry and specifically the folding of the laundry and she realized that she was waiting all day like putting it off and putting it off because she hated the job so much and then finally she would do it at the end of the day but then the day’s gone and she hadn’t managed to actually relax because any time that she was sitting down she couldn’t truly rest or relax because she had that pressure hanging over her of the laundry.

And I asked the question in the coaching session is it necessary and it’s a simple question but for her all these light bulbs started going off and she realized actually most of my clothes don’t require ironing they’re not the kind of things that are going to crease too much or look bad if they are creased I don’t have to do that at all. And one time actually I was living at my mom’s place and she divided all of my clothes up into these clear plastic tubs and just threw them in there and it made things so much easier so maybe what I need to do is just get another chest of drawers and then I’m sorted.

So now she just throws all the laundry in the drawers and calls it a day and she’s got her Wednesdays back and so it took though her giving herself permission to do things differently than might be expected in order to do that for herself and in order to keep her life functional.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah and it’s sometimes that rigid thinking too isn’t it where it’s like it has to be this way but when you actually have someone ask questions like what you’re saying they start to go why does it have to be that way I have no idea and then they’ve probably been living with this thing with these Wednesdays and the laundries for so long never questioning the why.

I think that’s such a great analogy because then she had her Wednesdays off to rest because she wasn’t consumed by this one job but that sometimes it’s like that with ADHD because it’s like you can’t problem solve you can but sometimes when it’s your own self and it’s a small problem but a large issue it’s like you can’t see hill for the trees with it. I find that all the time like how did I not think of that but then it comes to you and you’re like yeah that was really stressing me out.

Angie:

Yeah and it’s such a simple fix a lot of the time. I think also one of the things I didn’t say was that it’s really important to connect with people who love you no matter what. They accept you regardless of your imperfections. You’ve got to find your tribe and that takes some time. Oftentimes we haven’t naturally formed those groups, oftentimes we without meaning to have gravitated towards other neurodivergent folk but some of us don’t have that but I think it’s really important to find that because even in my own life it was really finding a workplace that valued my contribution, was willing to overlook some of my challenges or laugh them off with me which is another thing that I’ve done that’s really worked I think in my favor is I laugh these things off and it’s disarming for people.

They are I don’t know I guess more likely to laugh it off with you and find it endearing or funny as opposed to annoying if you’re able to see the humor in it and own your mistakes. But getting back to finding your tribe it can’t be understated how important that is because you can really only be vulnerable and be courageous enough to be your authentic self in an environment where you have safety and you’re not going to be ridiculed, criticized for being yourself because it takes a huge amount of courage when you’ve spent your whole life masking to gradually start taking that mask off.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah and I think with ADHD you know sometimes you can impulsively share too and you want to make sure that if you are going to be vulnerable you’re with the right people because you don’t want to start getting vulnerable or attempting to laugh a few things off and you’re actually not in a safe environment. Same as if you get diagnosed I probably wouldn’t start with people that you’re not sure about or maybe siblings if you’ve got a history of them not being supportive I wouldn’t call them first probably not a great place to start.

Angie:

100% and I think most of us naturally start to find our tribe online we start to relate to other people when we first get diagnosed and we go down the rabbit hole and we realize in these Facebook groups or whatever that there’s so many people out there like us and then gradually that gives us permission to be ourselves and the more ourselves we are when we’re out there in the world the more likely it is that we’re going to attract people like us and who will accept us.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah absolutely so with your recovery imperfectionism what do you think has been the largest tool so you obviously the community and also using humor if there’s anyone else listening that’s wanting to start on the road to recovery and they want to at least try and make some changes what would be some good kind of ways to get started at least?

Angie:

I mean I think so Kristen Neff’s website selfcompassion.org so it’s self-compassion.org has tons of self-compassion practices even the one that I mentioned earlier how would you treat a friend that’s one of the exercises she has listed on her website and one that I’ve used a lot for myself and with other people as well as that.

I think it’s if you can do some values work to understand what it is that’s most important to you and usually in my coaching sessions at some point in time we’re going to do work around values and narrow it down to your top three so that it’s really easy to recall them in the moment and filter your decisions through them or when you feel like things are a little bit off in your life you can call on your values and view your life through that lens and go okay where am I misaligned here what’s going on and pull your life back into alignment with your values because anytime we’re operating outside of our values it’s going to be unsustainable.

And then yeah I think as I said before finding your tribe if you can try to find a support group in your local area or try to connect some way with some other ADHDers in your life that’s always really helpful or even just neurodivergent folk in general because we all have that shared experience of feeling like we’re different somehow like maybe there’s something wrong with us and so you can connect that way.

But yeah I mean ultimately it comes down to self-acceptance and part of that is the unmasking and that just takes time gradual shedding and gradual like steps of courage towards unmasking.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah and that’s it I mean that might be a lifelong lesson for some of us myself included which I suppose then again goes back to self-compassion in that you can’t decide that you are going to no longer behave this way when this is how you’ve always been and this is the positive reinforcement that you’ve received and then suddenly you’re going to just shift because you’re now going to perfectly be on the path to recovery because that’s also the pressure right because now you’re like I know now I’m a perfectionist I will perfectly recover quickly and seamlessly and then I will teach others and inspire and lead because that’s the type of perfectionist brain that we have.

Angie:

Yeah and inevitably we’ll end up failing and then we’ve got to use self-compassion and the more we use that it’s like a muscle the more we use self-compassion the better we become at using self-compassion and retraining that voice in our head to be instinctively more self-compassionate.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah absolutely have you heard of the latest research they’re saying that I think they’re starting it in the US I don’t know if they’re doing it here yet that in the eating disorder clinics they’re starting to do ADHD testing when people arrive have you heard that?

Angie:

Yeah yeah I have I don’t know a ton about it but it makes a huge amount of sense.

Jane McFadden:

Absolutely because I was trying to figure out I was like wow well if a lot of us are 35 plus when we get diagnosed imagine turning up to an eating disorder clinic at 13 14 whatever you are and actually getting diagnosed then and there and I mean what a life-changing way to do it and the same with juvenile detention and some of those particular places that are being set up or alcohol and drug rehab if they start to test for ADHD there because I do wonder if you have an ADHD brain and an eating disorder I know we’re going off track slightly to give those particular girls or women or men whoever they are these strategies they may not actually be working for an ADHD brain and then there’s a sense of failure that doesn’t go well with a perfectionist brain.

Angie:

Yeah yeah yeah exactly I think a lot of those populations are massively underserved and unrecognized as having ADHD so the more that we can do to make sure that people are assessed earlier in their lives and given the support that they need earlier the less people are going to have to struggle with perfectionism later in life or addiction or workaholism or the controlling and the hiding and the pretending and the numbing and all the other things that we talked about earlier.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah absolutely absolutely now Angie I think we have hit the nail on the head pretty quickly with that one. What I think would be really great is I’m going to put the show notes in for Kristen Neff because that sounds like a really good resource for perfectionism. Thank you so much for your time is there anything extra that you want to share before we go any final passing notes to any ADHD recovering perfectionists?

Angie:

Look I think ultimately the antidote to perfectionism is self-compassion and so I would direct people to have a look at Kristen Neff’s website again that is kristenneff.org and she has so many great resources on there she’s got a couple of books a workbook even and I think that’s such a great place to start and from there you can work towards self-acceptance unmasking all the other good things but self-compassion is where it all starts ultimately.

Jane McFadden:

Okay well I will be going on a website straight after this which is going to be a ride for me thank you you’ve taught me a lot I really really appreciate your time and I think there’ll be a lot of perfectionists listening that will hopefully at least know where to start because I think with perfectionism sometimes we can’t get started even until it’s perfect what’s the perfect path forward so many questions so I think it’s great to have a path forward and to at least get started rather than sitting where I am and go I know I’m a perfectionist I can’t stop doing it.

That there it’s at some point it becomes an excuse and you know you really need to challenge yourself so I really appreciate your time. If anyone would like to work with Angie further I’m going to put her website in the show notes and give her a follow on Instagram I love her Instagram but thank you so much for your time Angie it’s been great.

Angie:

Absolute pleasure it’s always fun.