Episode 7 – Raising Strong Children: How to Support Without Always Solving Their Problems

Jane McFadden:

Welcome to the ADHD Mums podcast, a safe place for everyday Australian mums to discuss their struggles with ADHD, motherhood and life. Hello and welcome to ADHD Mums. Today we have an episode that’s a personal thing that I’ve been wanting to work on for a long time.

So I’ve brought in an expert that I believe is gonna really be able to unpack for us. The person I’ve brought in is Emma Rose Parsons from Spectrum House in Melbourne. So I accosted Emma at the psychologist conference in Brisbane and of course missed all the small talk and just went straight to, can you come on my podcast? I’ve been watching you for a long time.

And she just came back with yes straight away, which was amazing. Emma is a psychologist. She’s an ADHDer. She’s also a mum and she works in Melbourne predominantly in assessment or therapy.

Emma Rose Parsons:

A bit of both actually. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I get to do a bit of assessment, lots of clinic support.

Jane McFadden:

Beautiful. I love the fact that we have got so many psychologists that identify with ADHD, for example, and have got that lived experience. It makes it so incredible to get the right help. For some, I was not diagnosed correctly until I was 36. So I had at least 25 years of therapy for a neurotypical brain. So it’s just so refreshing when you get people that understand you.

So I really welcome and thank you for coming on.

Emma Rose Parsons:

Thanks for having me. Excited.

Jane McFadden:

Okay, so this topic that we are gonna go into is building resilience in children whilst resisting the urge to jump in and fix problems. If we go back to the beginning, because I actually wonder whether a lot of people really know what resilience means when they throw the word around. Oh, it’s building resilience, is it? What is it?

Emma Rose Parsons:

Yeah, look, I think there’s two main components to what resilience is. There’s the component of one, which is that you’ve got the competence, the ability, and also the capacity to manage difficult situations or situations that are challenging for whatever reason. So that’s component one — you can get through it.

And component two is that you can then bounce back or at least recover from those tricky situations or those challenges. So there’s kind of one part that’s getting through it. And the second part, I think, is that being able to come out the other end and get back to baseline at the minimum.

Jane McFadden:

Okay, great. And can you build resilience, obviously, in children, but can you continue to build resilience as an adult? Or is it a lifelong thing?

Emma Rose Parsons:

Oh, absolutely. I feel like there’s so much psychology that is really aimed at children and aimed at youth. And actually, what we teach our children, I think, could be just as equally taught to most adults because most adults weren’t taught how to do things like this as children.

I think we’re getting a lot more sort of mental health literate as a community. But when I was a child, we weren’t really taught words like resilience. They’re quite buzzy at the moment. I think there’s a lot of adults who could benefit from it just as much as the children and the youth could.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah, I do love to get therapy, like opportunities for my kids or learn things that could help them and then do it for myself and be like, wow, that really worked. That’s always a benefit, isn’t it?

So I hear a lot of people talking about resilience building and how it’s good for kids. And we are growing up in a generation with iPads and food and everything’s available immediately. And I understand that things are definitely changing. I was wondering what would be your point of view around when is challenges harmful and then when is it like positive building resilience? Where’s the line?

Emma Rose Parsons:

It’s such a good question. And I think that it’s one that families find really difficult to navigate because how do you know when to push your child through something to see whether or not they can overcome a challenge? And when do you know when sort of you should be rescuing them, for example.

And I think it comes down to a couple of things. One is, do they actually have skills to know how to navigate that challenge? Has anyone actually taught them what to do? Because if they don’t have the skills, then we’re asking them to do something that’s really hard without actually having the tools that they need to be able to manage that situation. So we’re actually setting them up for failure.

So that’s number one. The other thing is, do they actually have the energy or the resources to manage it? Some days we’ve got more in the tank than other days. And if we’re asking kids to do something that’s really hard on a day that they haven’t got much in the tank, again, we’re setting them up for failure and that’s really unfair.

So in those situations, I think we’ve got to be really mindful of two components. Number one is, do they have the tools? Number two, do they have the energy and the capacity, right? And let’s imagine that they had both of those things. They had the tools and they had the energy and capacity, right?

Then the next thing that I’d be thinking about is, okay, if that’s all set up, in this moment, is it actually a situation where it’s teachable? Are they actually going to be learning in this moment right now? And if the answer is no, then are we actually helping them? Are we doing something that’s gonna benefit them long-term or is it actually gonna be working against them?

So let me give you an example. Imagine you’re supporting a child to get ready for school camp. But school camp is a really big one. It’s always a hot topic for resilience building, right? Let’s imagine you’re trying to get your kid ready to go to school camp.

And they’re saying to you, I can’t do it. I can’t go to camp. It’s too big. It’s too hard, right? And you can’t, oh, you’ll be right, mate. You’ll be fine. Off you go. Once you get there, you’ll be right as rain, okay? They may and they may not be right as rain.

And when they get there, do they have the tools to know how to navigate being on camp without a parent? I don’t know. Do they know where they’re going? Do they have a safe person at school? Do they have strategies to help them to get to sleep when they don’t know how to fall asleep in a strange place? Do they have the setup that they need to be able to manage camp? That’s question one, right?

And let’s imagine they have all of that, but they’ve just been sick for the last two weeks and they’ve really got nothing in the tank. And they do have the tools, but they don’t now have the capacity. Like they’re just run down after being sick for two weeks. They may have the tools, but may not be able to implement them in that setting.

And so sending them off to camp might actually be a complete debacle because they may not be able to cope. I think it really depends on a couple of different factors. And I think just to say, oh, look, they went to camp last year and they’re fine. And therefore they’ll be fine again this year — it’s too simplified. What are the situations? What are the components for this year in this setting that are gonna make it likely or unlikely for that child to succeed?

Jane McFadden:

Oh, I love that because obviously children are just small adults. There’s times that I feel completely fine to do something and there’s times that I don’t and it doesn’t make sense. You know, that I can do something one day and I can’t do it the other.

I think that’s actually really simplified a complex thought pattern that I had in my head because I overthink everything. The other thing, although I suppose you talked about it, would be the environment. I wanted to talk to you briefly about schools as just an example.

I ended up pulling my daughter out of a classroom because I didn’t feel the environment was safe. So I thought, how is she gonna build resilience in a safe environment? Whereas fast forward six months, we ended up changing schools, which was a good decision. And then I was happy to continue to send her because I felt like the environment’s safe. I know the teacher.

I think the school’s great. She doesn’t wanna go, but I think I’m gonna send her and let the teacher know that she’s not really wanting to be there. Can you keep an eye on her? And if there’s a big issue, I can come get her. Do you think the environment has a blame?

Emma Rose Parsons:

Oh, it has such a massive component, right? Like the environment, if you don’t feel safe, then that’s all stop, right? Whether someone else feels like you’re safe or not can sometimes be irrelevant. If you don’t feel safe, then it’s gonna be really hard to cope.

If you’re in a situation where you’ve got a perceived threat, not a real threat — and we’ll just talk about perceived threat. Like I’m not saying there’s a mountain lion chasing you down the road, but you don’t feel safe. Then what’s gonna happen is that neurologically, your brain is gonna be firing. It’s an emergency mode, right?

So the amygdala is gonna be turned on. You’re gonna be in fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. Your ability to make logical, rational, problem-solving kind of decisions is gonna be really hampered. You’re going to be making decisions that are based on get out of here, stay safe, shut down, act out — whatever is gonna be your stay safe strategy.

And for different people, that will look like different things. So that might be the child that runs away or that hides under a desk or that can’t talk. And so these are situations where we say what used to be called school refusal, and we now call it school can’t because we understand better that it’s not kids being ornery or difficult.

It’s actually, they don’t feel safe and so they’re shutting down or they’re acting out. Their amygdalas are turned on. So in those situations, asking a child to access the part of the brain that’s their problem-solving part of the brain that’s gonna help them to use the tools that they have is gonna be really hard.

So if the child feels safe, then they’re more able to access the part of the brain that’s going to allow them to do the problem-solving. Hey, I actually need to be able to call mom or I need to be able to sit over there. I need to have someone not talk to me for a little while, et cetera, et cetera.

So what is it that you need in order to get through the day? That’s something you’re gonna be able to figure out and problem-solve if you feel safe and you can turn your amygdala off and your prefrontal cortex on and actually start doing some logical decision-making.

So if we have children in a situation where they’re so frightened, they’re so anxious, they’re so worried, they’re so anything, right? Any kind of extreme emotion, their ability to access their toolbox is gonna be nil. Like they’re gonna be having this great big old bolt on their toolbox of tricks. So they can’t get in there anyway.

So they could have every tool under the sun, right? Irrelevant. If they don’t feel safe, it’s gonna be super hard to access those tools.

Emma Rose Parsons:

So I think if you think about it on a continuum, right? This is how I do it. I think about it on a continuum. I think about there are three categories.

Category one is I feel so unsafe. I feel so at threat, right? But I actually can’t cope. And at that point in that situation, parents — our job is to save you, right? Our job is to get you out of that situation or support you or hold you or do whatever we need to do to help you get back to feeling safe.

So when you’re in category one, you can’t cope. I have to help you to be safe. Pretty straightforward. So if I’m using my kind of decision-making tree as a parent and I reckon that’s where my kid’s at, I’m just gonna stand there. I’m gonna hold them. I’m gonna support them. I’m gonna do whatever I need to do.

Step two or phase two along this continuum in the middle is I can cope, but I’m pretty uncomfortable. Now that is a space that is an awesome learning space because this is where we’re not feeling great. Like we don’t like it, but we can cope, which means we can access our toolbox.

And I think that’s where resilience can be really learnt and grown and strengthened because it’s not comfortable, but we are managing. And as parents, that’s where I feel like we’ve gotta be on the periphery. We’ve gotta be standing back, allowing our kids to stay uncomfortable, but we’re here for them. We’re not leaving them out in the world, but we are here. But we are gonna let you also figure this one out because you can cope.

I can see that you’re not loving it. I can see you’re not comfy, but you’re also not in distress, right? So as a parent, I’m gonna let you try and figure that one out on your own and manage that discomfort because I think you’re gonna be okay.

Versus the other end of the continuum, which is I’m completely fine, which as a parent, I’m standing right back. You’re good. Go for it. Knock yourself out.

So I think if you think about it on a continuum, the first question you need to ask yourself: is your child completely fine? Are they uncomfortable but they’re coping? In which case, keep an eye, but stand back. Or are they really not okay and they can’t cope, which means go in, do something.

Jane McFadden:

Okay, so let’s say you have a child who’s in the unsafe zone, like they are just not coping.

Emma Rose Parsons:

They’re not coping. Yep, they’re not coping.

Jane McFadden:

How would you then take them from the red zone, from the unsafe zone, back into the good learning, I-have-resilience zone? Would that be a skill or a tiredness fatigue? Like if they’re in red, bring them back into the middle. And then could you then have a go at the same situation?

Emma Rose Parsons:

Good question. So I think the thing is, if what’s keeping them in and they can’t cope is that they’re so exhausted that they can’t do anything, right? They’re that tired, they’re that overwhelmed, they’re that burnt out.

Then at that point, there’s nothing you can do other than wait for time and nurture and rest and recovery, and then reassess. If that’s where they’re at because they’ve been sick or they’ve just come back from doing something that’s really been out of their comfort zone for a while and they’ve actually run out of reserves, then wait till they’ve built their reserves back again and then reassess if you can try that thing again, right?

Or say, look, let’s imagine that they’re completely fine. They’re not — as in they’re not unwell, they’re not exhausted. It’s just that the thing is really hard. Then you need to break that thing down and make it easier.

For example, let’s think about getting to school for a child who’s seeing school as a real source of threat. And so getting to school is really tough, right? If they’re in the can’t cope category with the idea of getting into school, then I’d be thinking about how can I make school feel safer? How can I find a teacher that can be the safe teacher? How can I build that relationship with that teacher so that school itself is not a can’t cope?

School becomes an uncomfortable can cope. Maybe it’s looking at, rather than going for a six-hour day or six and a half hour day, maybe we’d look at going for a 30-minute day. Does that become uncomfortable but can cope if it’s only for 30 minutes rather than six and a half hours? What is it that makes it go from being really can’t cope to just being uncomfortable? What parameters need to change to make that feasible?

Jane McFadden:

Here’s a question for you that my husband and I debate daily, right? He’s a bit more old school. I’m a bit softer. And we usually have this discussion around resilience building and then the neurodivergent. He calls it a card.

So for example, food, clothing, shoes. I’ve got some major sensory stuff in our house and I do acknowledge I’m a little bit of a softy. And I think I was pushed through a lot of those things in my youth. And then I don’t think that’s done me any favours moving forward. Suck it up, don’t complain. Not always, in my mind, healthy.

But I understand there is a bit of pushing that needs to happen. I was wondering how do you balance between building resilience and you have to try some vegetables, just as an example, or we are going to the beach as a family whether you like sand or not, just examples. Then when you do have some sensory preferences, because that is really tricky for me to figure out.

Emma Rose Parsons:

Okay, so Jane, in my headspace, that comes back to a really interesting conundrum between whether we’re asking our children to follow instructions with the aim of compliance or follow the instructions with the aim of respect.

Now, compliance is do what you’re told and don’t question it. And respect is, let’s talk about what makes it hard for you, what makes it easier for you, how can we manage that together? I think they’re very different headspaces.

So number one, I think you need to decide if you’re pushing it because you want compliance or if you’re pushing it because you’re trying to build resilience. So I think that’s the first question you’ve got to ask yourself. Am I asking my child to do this because I just want them to do what they’re told? In which case you’re going to be pushing compliance versus respect.

I think they’re very different. And the second is, am I doing this to build resilience or am I actually pushing my child into can’t cope category? And then in which case, they’re not building any resilience. You don’t learn in that category.

I think that’s actually a really key component. You don’t learn in that category. Not well — well, you learn a little bit, but not well. Like you’re not thriving on your learning curve in the can’t cope category. So if you’re pushing someone into can’t cope, they’re not going to be benefiting from a learning experience.

Jane McFadden:

I think my husband might be a bit more involved and more in compliance. I’m more like, okay, I understand there’s sensory preferences. This is examples. We’re now cooking three different meals. Nobody tries anything. And I don’t think there’s really any vegetables going in.

So then I’m like, oh, am I catering to this? Or for example, when you’re riding to the beach — my favorite thing in the world is to go to the beach. And I’m like, it really sucks to be housebound with three children that won’t let me go to the beach for 10 minutes to sit down and take a breath. At what point do I get anything back?

I know they’re tricky questions.

Emma Rose Parsons:

No, and I think it’s a really good point. A part of being families is that you have to negotiate for all of the people in the family, that everybody in that family does matter, which means that the kids matter, the parents matter, everybody matters. And it’s not just one way or the highway. It’s looking at how do we negotiate this?

So let’s use the beach example. There are options there. Option one is that there are opportunities where you get to go to the beach on your own if it’s something that you really enjoy. So you can sit on the beach and sift those beautiful little sand granules through your toes and look at the water and listen to the waves and get that beautiful mindfulness of being at the beach, which is stunning, right?

And there are some people who genuinely can’t cope with the texture of sand or the feeling of sand. And I think that’s where the problem solving part of the parenting has to come into play. Let’s imagine that you have a child that needs a medical intervention and this is a life-saving medical intervention. So they actually have to have it.

And sometimes being a parent is that you don’t really get to choose like the time and the place. Like this is something that’s actually gonna save your life and I’m actually gonna have to overrule you need to have this thing. Like let’s imagine hypothetically — we can argue the pros and cons of it later, but let’s just go with this example for now. Let’s imagine that requires the child to have an injection, right?

Now there’s not many kids who were like rushing the doctor’s office to have an injection. It’s a fairly unfun thing to do. The thing is, I think sometimes it’s really hard and fast. Like you have to have it, you need to pack it up. And I don’t think that it needs to be that black and white. I think as a community, we do sometimes go a little bit black and whitey.

We go, it’s either all the child’s decision or it’s all the parent’s decision. And sometimes I think we need to figure out some halfway. So it’s the parent’s decision, you have to have this injection. It’s gonna actually save your life, right?

But what I think we forget to do is say to the child, okay, what is it that you need to make this as manageable as we can make it? ‘What do you need…’ sentence stem I think is one of the most powerful things that we can have in a tricky situation with our kids when we’re looking at building resilience. What do you need to make this manageable?

And do you need to have your earphones on up loud with Blu-ray playing on an iPad so you can fully immerse yourself in that episode of Blu-ray so you can’t think about what else is going on? Do you need to have some sugar to just give your body a distraction at a really high sugar content to just distract your brain a bit? Do you need me to bear hug you so that you feel really safe?

What is it that you need to make that feel containable for you? Because we need to do this thing. So let’s talk about what we can surround you with to make it durable.

Switching back to the camp example, I often do the same thing with kids in clinic. So like we’ve got camp and kids will say to me, I wanna go to camp, but I can’t. Really common conversation. Okay, what do you need to make camp manageable?

Number one, kids never know enough about camp. They don’t know what the place looks like. They don’t know where they’re gonna sleep. They don’t know what they’re gonna do if they can’t fall asleep. They don’t know what to do if they can’t eat the food. So what are all the bits of information that you need? And then let’s talk about problem solving and managing those and create a plan.

I think that creating a plan around difficult situations and that problem solving component is a skill that I don’t think we’re that good at. I don’t actually think we’re great problem solvers. And going back to this whole topic where we started this conversation, as parents, we don’t like seeing our kids uncomfortable.

We hate it. And as moms, we’re super good problem solvers. Like we are amazable at problem solving, right? We are so good.

And so what happens is we don’t like seeing our kids uncomfortable. So we rescue them with plans. Oh, don’t worry, we could do this, or we could try that, or don’t worry about it, because we’ll do this, right?

Now, every time we do that, what happens is we strengthen our problem solving skills and our kids get zero practice at strengthening their problem solving skills. So we set up a situation where as moms, we get better at something we’re already good at. We don’t really need to get better at problem solving — we’ve ticked that one off.

But our kids are having no practice at being uncomfortable and having to figure out what they can do about it. So we’re not helping them to use the part of the brain that’s gonna help them get out of the tricky situations. We’re actually disabling them in a way.

Jane McFadden:

I just had this mass brainwave. That was so amazing, Emma. But I tell you, these interviews, I just love them because I just learn so much.

You know what I was just thinking when you were talking about that? I absolutely agree. I love what you’re saying. But I was actually just thinking about all the times — I’ve got three kids. I’ve got two boys who are disruptive and a bit all over the place. I had the two boys with me, which is always a riot.

And then my husband had my daughter who is very perfectionistic, but she can be quite rigid. If it doesn’t go her way, she does get quite upset. But she’s generally easier than the boys. Anyway, he rings me. He’s got her in the car with him. And he asked me some question, which only a husband can ask.

‘I want to go to Woolworths, but she wants to go to the pharmacy first,’ right? I’ve got the boys who are kicking off, going, fighting each other, throwing each other against the fence. And he’s ringing me to ask me what shop he should go to first. Instead of just asking her, she’s in the car with him. Why is he ringing me?

I know every woman on this podcast will probably be resonating with this. And I know that’s a heterosexual example, but there’s always examples for every couple. But what I was just thinking is when you were talking about not allowing somebody else to learn the problem solving, I just thought, how many times do I solve it for my husband? And then he continues to ask.

You were talking about the kids getting the learning opportunity, but I just realized then that maybe my husband — maybe it’s only my husband, I doubt it — is missing those opportunities too.

Emma Rose Parsons:

It’s a really interesting one because in the same vein, I do most of the cooking in our house, right? And one of the things that my husband says to me is that he’s happy to cook, but he doesn’t really know where to start. And you seem to be able to whip something out of nowhere.

He says, I need a plan, it doesn’t work for me. So we went through the headspace of, actually, he hasn’t got the skillset to look at the fridge and go, okay, with what’s in there, what can I cook? He needs a plan.

Now, I was feeling really resentful at the end of last year because I was doing all the cooking and I was getting quite burnt out from working full time, doing all the cooking, doing all the other things, right? Buying Christmas presents, all the things that moms tend to do — not always, but often.

And so this year, we’ve gone ahead and gone a couple of days a week, we get one of those meal kits. And so the meal kit has all the ingredients that are required and it has instructions. So twice a week, he cooks the meal, right? And it means that he’s now got all the things he needs to be able to do the meal.

So I think you’re right. We so frequently will rescue other people because we’re really good problem solvers and to the detriment of them and also to the detriment of their self-worth, because what happens is they then lose confidence in making those decisions on their own, more problem solving on their own because they actually become reliant on us.

Bad for us, bad for them. We create a situation of dependence and then we get resentful because we’re burnt out and we’re holding this massive mental load. But why are we holding so much?

Jane McFadden:

Yeah, I love that. And then I then am resentful that he can go away to do a course that he wants to do or whatever. And if I want to go do something, it’s this really massive deal. But if I strip that back, I’m like, it’s not that he doesn’t want me to go because he’s selfish or it’s none of that.

I think he’s terrified, probably because he doesn’t know how to problem solve a lot of the things and he doesn’t know what he would do if I wasn’t around. Maybe he does, but he hasn’t practiced for a little while or ever. But yeah, I think he’s terrified of it, to be honest.

Emma Rose Parsons:

But then the thing is that I think there’s an expectation that mums are gonna get it right all the time too. We actually don’t. Like we actually make a lot of mistakes and we learn through our mistakes.

I feel like one of the other components in all of these is that you have to not only problem solve, but you also have to get it right the first time. That’s rubbish. We absolutely have not got it right the first time. Why should anyone else get it right the first time?

Trial and error learning is a very valid way of learning. It’s actually okay for your child to go to school and forget their jumper and learn from that. They’re not dying. They’re gonna be chilly, yep, and not gonna be very fun. They probably will cope.

I’m not saying do it on a negative six day. I’m just saying generally speaking. What would happen if they didn’t take their jumper? What would happen if they actually didn’t pack their lunchbox as well as they… you know that they’re gonna be hungry. They’re gonna be hungry. They’re gonna come home and they’re still gonna raid the fridge or the pantry or the fruit bowl or whatever. They’re gonna be okay.

Those uncomfortable can copes that we have to allow to happen more so that people can also learn through trial and error. And they can try a problem solving strategy and if it doesn’t work, it’s okay. I think that safe failure thing, right? Being in a situation where it’s actually safe to fail and learn from that and then to be able to retry is also part of resilience building.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah, I think you’ve made a great point. I remember my mum leaving me in charge for putting my hat in my bag or something and like I have ADHD, that’s good luck to me, but it only took a couple of times of me having to walk down to the Loston property and wear the hat that was the wrong colour, that was really dirty looking, and it had Loston fan on the outside. It took a couple of times for me to remember. I was like, I’m never doing that again.

It’s a great point that you’ve made. That probably is something I could look at because I am that person that packs the bag for everybody. And I think that a lot of mums do.

Emma Rose Parsons:

Let’s come back to context in this again, right? Let’s put back this whole neurodivergent lens back on it again. What you’re going to do with one person is always gonna be different to what you’re gonna do with another person, right? Every single person has a different goal for them.

For example, if you have one child who in the morning can get themselves up, get themselves dressed, pack their own lunch, get themselves ready to go to school and off they go, you might be working on resilience for them for actually coping with being five minutes late to school every now and again and not having to be on time every single day. Like actually being okay with not being like the perfect student. That actually might be what you’re working.

And I sometimes say this to kids, it’s actually okay to be a couple of minutes late to school every now and again. That’s also life. And so sometimes we’re also working on imperfection as our resilience building rather than getting to school on time.

So then you might have another student, another child who’s also trying to get to school and you’re trying to work on resilience for them for maybe doing one or two of their getting ready skills independently or more independently, right? And so different children are gonna have different things that they’re working on.

And so while I’ve got one child who I would actually really be liking them to be comfortable being a couple of minutes late to school, I’ve got another child who I will probably be helping to get dressed for a while because that executive functioning is really hard. And I’m actually not teaching anything by yelling about the fact you’re running late. All I’m doing is putting that person into distress mode.

Jane McFadden:

Skills and different things that they need help with. Isn’t that a perfect way of introducing the concept and different people have different in the world?

Emma Rose Parsons:

Yeah, exactly. Because you’re playing to people’s strengths and nobody has all of the strengths.

Jane McFadden:

I think that’s a great point because in a team, if someone’s really terrible at something you don’t then give them that as their job, which is a really — it’s been a big learning for me. My husband and I have like then gone and redivided everything up differently because he’s not very good without a timeframe. So he has to do everything that needs to be done. Otherwise we die. Like he has to do shopping because otherwise we don’t have food.

Whereas I’m proactive with things like getting the roof fixed. Yeah, I think that’s a great point actually. I’m going to have to go think about that one too, later on.

Emma Rose Parsons:

Yeah, but I think the families where you’re trying to set up a everybody in the family must do this and everyone in the family must do that — as soon as you do that, you’re actually working against yourself because it just doesn’t work that way.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah, and then you’ve got to then try and get them to conform, which is like the schooling system. When you’re eight, you will do this. And then someone can’t and you have to fight that battle with them every day. It’s a great point, make your life harder.

Jane McFadden:

If we get to the tricky one before we finish up — bullying at school. And we’ve just gone over that all children are different. So I understand we’re not going to do some rules for everybody. However, it’s a really big one that I think parents struggle with in terms of what is building resilience and what is an unsafe, anxiety provoking thing.

Because you also then have to look at how dangerous bullying can be. If it’s online and there’s a lot of talk around youth mental health and how bad it is, that then you’re like fearful, but then you don’t want to keep taking them out of the environment. Is there anything that you have to share around that?

Emma Rose Parsons:

Yeah, I think that bullying is a really interesting topic because it’s so complex. And I think there’s a few things to unpack there. One is, is the person just being annoying and you can manage it? Is the person actually being a bully, which is like more repetitive, intense, or is it moving from that into more assault where it’s physical?

So there are different categories, if you will. And not to say that annoying is not problematic — they’re all problematic, they’re just different, I think. And emotional bullying and physical bullying can be equally problematic. One is not better or worse than the other. They can both be pretty bad.

At the end of the day though, bullying really is a power play. The whole idea behind someone bullying someone else is to get more power or control over the other person. And I think it’s a really interesting one, but again, I would come back to your continuum.

Is the child in a situation where they are actually able to manage it? Are they in the uncomfortable can cope category? It’s not fun, but they have enough strategies and their strategies are helpful strategies. So the strategies aren’t go and hide in the toilets. The strategies are: tell an adult that’s trusted, find a safe person to be with, protect yourself, et cetera, et cetera.

Is it a situation that is actually manageable, or is it in a can’t cope situation in which case you need to step in and create safety for that person? So whether that’s having a meeting with a school, whether that’s actually removing a child for a short period of time while you figure out what the strategies for them for a return-to-school strategy, et cetera, et cetera.

Whether it’s not — maybe it’s not happening at school, but it’s happening on the bus on the way to school, or maybe it’s happening at the milk bar on the way home from school. I don’t know, but I think the thing is figure out whether or not your child, if they are being teased or bullied, do they feel that they have the strategies and the support that they need to manage it on site or in a location that it’s happening?

Or are they just trying to hold it together until they get home and then they’re actually not okay, or they’re falling apart on the spot and they’re not okay. If they’re not okay, you need to step in — no doubt about it. But I think if they’re in that can’t cope or they’re uncomfortable category and they’re actually communicating well with their teacher and they’re communicating to someone at school who’s doing something about it and they’re feeling supported, then you actually may not need to step in any more than to say, hey, I’m really proud of how you’re coping with this or how you’re managing this.

Bullying is really interesting, but it’s a power play and it’s unfun. And we do have massive policies in the education system around bullying, but 99% of the time, it’s actually a reactive strategy to monitor what’s happened, what we do.

I have to say the school that my kids are at, they have a pretty good proactive strategy for managing bullying. And one of the things I love about it is they celebrate what they call upstanders. So an upstander is a student who stands up to bullying.

And so they actively support upstanders. They actively support the students who put themselves in a situation, safely, but who said, hey, hang on, stop. Or they go and get a teacher and say, hang on a second, I’ve observed someone bullying, I need you to do something.

And I think that’s super important and actually really cool. And if you think about our community as a whole, we actually need more people who stand up and go, wait, stop, what you’re doing is not okay.

Jane McFadden:

And then it’s not he said, she said, because there’s a third party. Someone else.

Emma Rose Parsons:

Yeah. We need more upstanders.

Jane McFadden:

That is said so simply. I’m like, why does nobody else do that? That’s really incredible because then you’re like rewarding. And I suppose they have an award and they hand it out. You know, that’s really amazing, but also simple.

Emma Rose Parsons:

Absolutely.

Jane McFadden:

With the bullies, this is going to be a big question. So feel free if you can’t answer this one. Let’s just say someone’s bullying a child and then that child copes, moves on, stands up for themselves, something happens and that situation resolves itself.

Do you think that a bully is somebody that then moves on to somebody else? Or do you think it is a power play reaction to that child?

Emma Rose Parsons:

It totally depends, right? I think most people who engage in bullying behaviour are experiencing a situation where they feel like they need to get power. Now, sometimes they are doing that temporarily because they’ve had their own life change or they’ve moved or something happening for them where they’re not feeling like they’ve got enough control or power. So sometimes it’s temporary.

Sometimes they’ve tried it out and they go, oh golly, actually that doesn’t feel good for me either. I didn’t like the way I did that. And they go, actually, no, on reflection, I really shouldn’t have done that. If I want more control or power, I really needed to seek it elsewhere.

Some kids have actually excellent insight and they do it as a bit of a trial and error thing. And then they go, ooh, yuck, that didn’t feel good. Some children will actually just learn from feedback from teachers: hey, when you did that, this is what this person felt. And then da-da-da-da-da-da, do it again, there’s going to be really big consequences. And that will be enough for them to stop.

And some kids won’t be in a situation where they’ll have that other backup, that other support, right? And they won’t have someone that will help them navigate those big feels. And they won’t have someone who will challenge them as to whether or not their behavior actually was in line with their own morals and ethics, right? Because bullying behavior for most people actually doesn’t match their ethics and morals. For most people, it feels yuck, actually.

So if they haven’t got someone who’s going to help them — not shame them, interestingly. We don’t actually need to shame anyone. It doesn’t help anyone. Shame only works again, no. But to help them unpack: why did you do that? And did it actually make you feel good? Is it actually what you wanted? And actually support them to make different decisions, then it’s going to be really hard for them to do that.

Jane McFadden:

That was really insightful. I’ve got so many things I’m going to think about later. That was amazing.

Jane McFadden:

The final question I have for you, Emma, before I let you go is, are there any general do’s and don’ts for parents around resilience building within the neurodivergent children community?

Emma Rose Parsons:

Yeah, definitely don’t try and push through if they’re in a can’t cope category. You’re not helping anyone at that point. That’s a get-in-and-help scenario. So that is not a situation where you’re going to try and push through to get to the other side. Sometimes it’ll work, but often it won’t. And actually, I always will argue how much you’re really helping them to learn if you’re just pushing through a can’t cope.

Number two, stop rescuing in a can cope but uncomfortable. It’s okay to sit with someone who’s in a can cope but uncomfortable phase. Sit with them, be there, but don’t do anything. Be present, but don’t do action.

That’s, I think, a really important one. That’s probably my biggest take home message, if you will, is be present, be available, but don’t rescue in that middle category.

And just remember that neurodivergent people, we’re trying to navigate a neurotypical life community environment. And so the parameters are a little different. And just because one child can do it in a class doesn’t mean that every child can do it in a class. So we’ve got to stop comparing.

Okay, there’s a component of like norms that we need to check in with every now and again. Comparison really is that thief of joy. And comparing our kids to other kids in the class often, I think, sets everybody up for failure versus looking at personal best.

What’s the PB for my kid? What’s their personal best? Oh, their personal best is they managed to be uncomfortable can cope with a bit of broccoli on their plate. That was a PB for them. And actually, that’s great.

And so I would go for personal bests rather than comparing with the classmates because I think that is a pretty quick recipe for dark stuff.

Jane McFadden:

Yeah, I agree. I totally agree. The only other thing I was going to add was I always get a lot of DMs — and you would get this all the time, Emma — about people that may or may not want to go through the formal diagnosis process. And then if they don’t want to disclose to their child or to anybody else anything that’s found.

From what you’ve just said, it made me think of my daughter. We only talked about her diagnosis with books and stuff in probably around December, January. So that’s only five months ago, six months ago, whatever. And I was really glad that I did that because the transition between grade two and three was very difficult for her.

And medically, she wasn’t able to continue. So a pediatrician and clinical psych made that decision. That was not me pulling her out of that environment, even though I definitely wanted to, but I wanted to make sure that I wasn’t doing that. And she was comfortable.

What you were saying about, you don’t want to remove a child from a schooling environment if they’re just uncomfortable but can cope. And medically, I definitely got two opinions. She wasn’t coping. So that made the decision easy. But for her, when she laid awake in bed at night, she would say to me, why? Why is everybody else okay with the changes? Why am I the only one?

And God, I felt for her. It almost brings me to tears now thinking about it. And it was the safety of being able to talk to her about the way her brain worked that made it better for her to understand because otherwise all you would feel for her is I’m not good enough. I can’t cope. There’s something wrong with me.

And I think that conversation was made a lot easier because I had disclosed that diagnosis to her and we’d already done that. So I suppose I just wanted to share that because I thought what you were saying was really relevant and important. And then sometimes I think the funny feelings around labelling can actually really save you in those situations.

Emma Rose Parsons:

I think the word labelling in itself is often problematic. I think it’s understanding a neurotype. And when we understand our neurotypes, we understand ourselves better. It just makes life easier because we understand the way different brains work. And different is not a negative connotation. Different is just different.

And then it can make it easier to find other people that are the same kind of different. Here’s a good example. Last week was Mother’s Day and our school do a Mother’s Day brunch breakfast thing. And it’s in the hall and there’s 6 billion people there and it’s loud and there’s scratching chairs on floors and everything like that.

Actually, that’s a can’t cope for me. And it’s gonna really kind of muck up my day. I simply said to my son, that is a sensory overload to me. It’s not gonna be fun. I’d really love to spend the same time with you, but can we please just have a lovely brekkie and a coffee together at our local cafe where it’s quiet. And I know the owner and I feel very safe there.

And he was like, great, let’s do that. And we had a beautiful brekkie. And it was great because it wasn’t me saying, oh gosh, I’m broken, I can’t go to this thing. There’s nothing wrong with me. That simply just doesn’t work for me, but this does.

Jane McFadden:

Anyway, you’ve spent that time together connecting without the chaotic. I would wonder in those events how much you actually get to connect with your child anyway. The kids all go out and play soccer anyway. It’s gonna be funny.

But I guess my point was, I wasn’t feeling like I was making excuses. I didn’t feel like I was having to say there’s anything wrong with me or wrong with us for not going. It was simply an explanation of what situation was gonna work better for us. And I think it plays really well.

Emma Rose Parsons:

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And then it’s paving the way, showing them that you can make choices that suit your neurotype and that’s okay.

Jane McFadden:

Modeling, yeah.

Emma Rose Parsons:

I think that’s a great point rather than just masking up, grinning and bearing it and then going home in a bit of a heap.

Jane McFadden:

No, and for what purpose? Like it doesn’t add value to anyone other than trying to show the school community that you can hold it together. I don’t wanna show that to anyone actually. That’s a great point. It’s a great point.

There’s so much to think about. Thank you so much, Emma. It’s just been really amazing.

Emma Rose Parsons:

You’re so welcome. And obviously there’s nuance in this, right? This is general advice for sure. And different situations will have different tweaks that you’d need to consider, slight variations or maybe this model doesn’t work for everybody. But it’s some concepts I think that can be quite handy to use and to have a play with.

Jane McFadden:

I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much, Emma.

Emma Rose Parsons:

Thank you for having me, Jane. It’s been fun. The key message here is you are not alone.

Jane McFadden:

Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, follow us on Instagram or head over and join our amazing ADHD Mums Podcast Facebook community. Everything you do matters and helps to spread the word about what neurodiversity in females looks like. Thank you.